Question for Discussion

[bling]

Question for Discussion

If guidance by the Holy Spirit is a compulsory condition for knowing who Jesus Christ is (John 3: 1-8; 16: 8-15; 1 Cor. 12:3), how is it possible to know that Jesus is the “I Am Who I Am”, or the self-sufficient source of life, the LORD God in person (Ex. 3: 1-15), at His death on the cross, i.e., 50 days before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)?

The truth was there if someone was smart enough without the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit to put it together. I do not see any of the disciples we are following being able to put it together from their comments. In their defence i think they were taught wrong by their former teachers and parents and freinds.

[Bosco]

I also respectfully disagree.

The doctrinal differences amongst the self-styled “people of God” are the consequence of not having “the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God’s wisdom and knowledge" or firsthand and personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, who is the personification of “God’s secret” (Col. 2: 2-3).

It is the total neglect of knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, as provided for, that is the real cause of the doctrinal differences (Jer. 31: 31-34; Matt. 26: 26-29 ff). This is also reiterated by John’s detailed vision of the discrepancy between “what must happen very soon” and “the truth revealed by Jesus Christ” which broke him down into “bitter tears” (Rev. 1: 1-2; 5).

May the LORD bless you!

I don't disagree, I believe understanding who he is is indeed the key to understanding. But I also don't believe it ends there, we still have work to do, study to do. When he returns we are changed, before which time we are error prone and corruptible. There are many things I have come to understand since starting to look at scripture more Hebraically, and this began many years after coming to an understanding of who Yehoshua is. For example, Hillel's influence on Paul is apparent in many ways, one of which is the use of "light and heavy" or "how much more." Without having taken some time to understand that style of teaching of Hillel, I had no way to understand the depths of which some of Paul's writing speak. But you know what, you are talking about mysteries and I am speaking about general scriptural knowledge... so maybe we are both correct. Though, seeing no man knows the day nor hour of Messiah's return, there are still some mysteries which we are not privy to.

Peace.
Ken

[EphremHagos]

Initially the mantle was passed from Elijah > John > Jesus:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Then it was passed from Jesus > Disciples (man) > Church (woman):

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Before Pentecost, disciples received some measure of power from Jesus to heal and perceive mysteries, Matthew 10:1, Matthew 13:11. But after he was gone, Jesus passed on his mantle to them, and then they to the church.

Sorry, I do not see the relevance of the suggestions of two lines of transferred positions to the topic at hand. The lines are also laden with serious flaws --chief of which is the depreciation of the role of Jesus Christ who is the exclusive and ultimate source of authority in either case!

[EphremHagos]

The truth was there if someone was smart enough without the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit to put it together. I do not see any of the disciples we are following being able to put it together from their comments. In their defence i think they were taught wrong by their former teachers and parents and freinds.

The truth was surely there! Nevertheless, no one was, nor will ever “smart enough to put it together” without the help of the Holy Spirit either in foretaste or indwelling. No one can know who Jesus Christ is unless he is born again of the Spirit (John 3:3).

Accordingly, there were a limited number of known fore tasters of baptism in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ in Scriptures (both Old and New) including surprising and precious few breakthroughs or removal of barriers to progress on the typically hard way to the narrow gate of life (Matt. 7: 13-14). Examples of the latter include James and John (Matt. 20: 20-28; Mark 10: 35-45) and Mary of Bethany (John 12: 1-8).

[John Goddard]

Sorry, I do not see the relevance of the suggestions of two lines of transferred positions to the topic at hand. The lines are also laden with serious flaws --chief of which is the depreciation of the role of Jesus Christ who is the exclusive and ultimate source of authority in either case!

Point being that revelation of truths from God happened prior to Pentecost, Matthew 16:16-17 for example.

While picking up the mantle of anointing others followed the chain I described in the two lines, from Elijah to John to Jesus at his baptism:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Then from Jesus to Disciples:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Then from Disciples to the Church:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Not sure what you mean about depreciating the role of Jesus, since the chain of anointing is self-explanatory in the verses provided.

[EphremHagos]

I don't disagree, I believe understanding who he is is indeed the key to understanding. But I also don't believe it ends there, we still have work to do, study to do. When he returns we are changed, before which time we are error prone and corruptible. There are many things I have come to understand since starting to look at scripture more Hebraically, and this began many years after coming to an understanding of who Yehoshua is. For example, Hillel's influence on Paul is apparent in many ways, one of which is the use of "light and heavy" or "how much more." Without having taken some time to understand that style of teaching of Hillel, I had no way to understand the depths of which some of Paul's writing speak. But you know what, you are talking about mysteries and I am speaking about general scriptural knowledge... so maybe we are both correct. Though, seeing no man knows the day nor hour of Messiah's return, there are still some mysteries which we are not privy to.

Peace.
Ken

Please allow me the say the following.

If you find the standard, Scriptural, vision-based, life-transforming, firsthand and personal knowledge of Jesus Christ –the “I Am Who I Am”, i.e., self-sufficient source of abundant life and complete happiness (Ex. 3: 1-15; John 8: 21-28; 10:10; 17:3; 19: 30-37); or “the first”, i.e., Alpha and “the last”, i.e., Omega (Rev. 1: 17-18), at His diacritical death on the cross, less than all-sufficient in every respect, you had better re-examine the validity and reliability of your own source of knowledge as compared to the detailed road map in Scriptures.

Blessings!

[Bosco]

Please allow me the say the following.

If you find the standard, Scriptural, vision-based, life-transforming, firsthand and personal knowledge of Jesus Christ –the “I Am Who I Am”, i.e., self-sufficient source of abundant life and complete happiness (Ex. 3: 1-15; John 8: 21-28; 10:10; 17:3; 19: 30-37); or “the first”, i.e., Alpha and “the last”, i.e., Omega (Rev. 1: 17-18), at His diacritical death on the cross, less than all-sufficient in every respect, you had better re-examine the validity and reliability of your own source of knowledge as compared to the detailed road map in Scriptures.

Blessings!

Are you suggesting that if at anytime I see Yehoshua as only a man then I need to reexamine my sources for reliability?

Peace.
Ken

[EphremHagos]

Point being that revelation of truths from God happened prior to Pentecost, Matthew 16:16-17 for example.

While picking up the mantle of anointing others followed the chain I described in the two lines, from Elijah to John to Jesus at his baptism:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Then from Jesus to Disciples:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Then from Disciples to the Church:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Not sure what you mean about depreciating the role of Jesus, since the chain of anointing is self-explanatory in the verses provided.

The stakes are infinitely higher than what is accepted in conventional Christianity (and you). Here is the reason for the “serious flaws” I referred to.

Far from being a climax, “Pentecost” (Acts 2) is a retroactive and propagative application of the final, exceedingly powerful and all-time self-revelation of God (in the all-round “resurrection” proper) right at Jesus Christ’s death on the cross strictly “according to the Scriptures”, i.e., the culmination of the trend in the books of Moses and the writings of the prophets, without which faith will prove spurious (John 1: 47-51). An excellent benchmark is God’s self-revelation to Moses in the flame coming from the middle of a bush on fire but not burning up signifying self-sufficient life (“I Am Who I Am”) with a parallel promise for posterity actually kept alive and fulfilled in the “new covenant” (Ex. 3: 1-15; John 8: 21-28; 19: 30-37) --source of firsthand knowledge of God. Herein is the true significance; and unique and convincing evidence for the resurrection applied successfully by Jesus Christ (Luke 24: 25-27; Acts 1: 1-5) and referred to by the writer of the fourth Gospel as the cause for the unbelief of the majority of the disciples (John 20:9).

For personal and experiential reasons, I maintain strongly that Jesus Christ is much more than a link, viz.: “the first and the last” (Rev. 1:17) in the “mantle of anointing”!

[EphremHagos]

Are you suggesting that if at anytime I see Yehoshua as only a man then I need to reexamine my sources for reliability?

Peace.
Ken

I am in good company to answer in the affirmative (2 Cor. 5:16).

[John Goddard]

For personal and experiential reasons, I maintain strongly that Jesus Christ is much more than a link, viz.: “the first and the last” (Rev. 1:17) in the “mantle of anointing”!

He's the mediator of anointing now, I guess that's a link of sorts.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Here, first and last means you don't get to God except through Jesus.

[EphremHagos]

He's the mediator of anointing now, I guess that's a link of sorts.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Here, first and last means you don't get to God except through Jesus.

Wouldn't complete confusion and loss follow the absence of knowledge of the points of departure (Jesus Christ) and arrival (God)?

[John Goddard]

Wouldn't complete confusion and loss follow the absence of knowledge of the points of departure (Jesus Christ) and arrival (God)?

I think see what you're saying. As an analogy, instead of passing by Jesus holding the door open for us to enter the Temple with God inside, Jesus is the Temple with God within him.

A link of sorts, but not an isolated point from A to B for example.

If that sounds more agreeable...?

[Bosco]

I am in good company to answer in the affirmative (2 Cor. 5:16).

All that says is that we know him in Spirit now, and not in the flesh. One of us took the other wrong it seems, because I have no idea what you are saying. I believe Yehoshua is God, that he came as a man for the suffering of death, to reconcile the world unto himself, and now sits at the right hand (metaphoric or symbolic for the seat of power and authority) of the Father.

Peace.
ken

[EphremHagos]

I think see what you're saying. As an analogy, instead of passing by Jesus holding the door open for us to enter the Temple with God inside, Jesus is the Temple with God within him.
A link of sorts, but not an isolated point from A to B for example.

If that sounds more agreeable...?

Of course! You now sound more agreeable with the claims by Jesus Christ about himself and by others (including me) about him which, according to Jesus, are not all that valid and reliable anyway (John 5: 31-35).

The established and verifiable option is to see for oneself the witness of Jesus’ supernatural works in action, in real time, by participating in the “baptism of the Holy Spirit into union with his death” on the cross (Ibid, 5: 36; 10: 37-38; Rom. 6: 3-5). This is, indeed, the hard lesson learned by the disciples, after three years, final denial (Judas and Peter), desertion (8 disciples), 40-day recap, a few more days of preparation and prayer and final application on the day of Pentecost resulting in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth about Jesus, viz.: his full divinity as “I am Who I Am” or the “Father” , i.e., self-sufficient source of life as demonstrated in death (John 8: 21-28, 19: 30-37). That is why it pays to look at him whom they pierced!

By the grace of God, I have personally seen the deeply mysterious and life-transforming vision of the sovereign authority of Jesus over death and life (John 1:51; Matt. 28: 18-20) more than 34 years ago and lived thereafter to make sense of it for my understanding and assurance, through confirming its Scriptural validity, and to share my testimony. The second half of my life by far outshines the first!
PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EphremHagos]

All that says is that we know him in Spirit now, and not in the flesh. One of us took the other wrong it seems, because I have no idea what you are saying. I believe Yehoshua is God, that he came as a man for the suffering of death, to reconcile the world unto himself, and now sits at the right hand (metaphoric or symbolic for the seat of power and authority) of the Father.

Peace.
ken

“No longer, then, do we judge anyone by human standards! Even if at one time we judged Christ, according to human standards, we no longer do so.” 2 Cor. 5:16

As our role model, Paul is setting an empirical basis for forming “before” and “after” opinion of Jesus Christ WITH or WITHOUT weighing the evidence, correspondingly. I hope you agree.

Blessings!