For Pre-Tribbers: 1 Thess. 5:6

[RCNicholas]

Well, I was talking to my dad the other day, who is firmly dispensationalist and so believes in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and I asked him about 1 Thess. 5, which refers to the "day of the Lord." He believes the "day of the Lord" is the literal 7-year Tribulation followed by the 1,000-year literal reign of Christ on Earth. Also, 1 Thess. 4, for those who don't know, is a famous Pre-Trib proof-text for the Rapture, which is distinct in their minds from the day of the Lord. Chapter 5 says that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night," (verse 2)and, "Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." (verse 6) My question to him was, why would we need to watch and be sober for the day of the Lord, if we're automatically going to be Raptured out of here before it even starts? Thoughts from believers in a Pre-Trib Rapture on this?

[seanD]

Well, I was talking to my dad the other day, who is firmly dispensationalist and so believes in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and I asked him about 1 Thess. 5, which refers to the "day of the Lord." He believes the "day of the Lord" is the literal 7-year Tribulation followed by the 1,000-year literal reign of Christ on Earth. Also, 1 Thess. 4, for those who don't know, is a famous Pre-Trib proof-text for the Rapture, which is distinct in their minds from the day of the Lord. Chapter 5 says that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night," (verse 2)and, "Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." (verse 6) My question to him was, why would we need to watch and be sober for the day of the Lord, if we're automatically going to be Raptured out of here before it even starts? Thoughts from believers in a Pre-Trib Rapture on this?

Not that I necessarily believe in a rapture -- more like 60-40 sure -- but I honestly don't think there will be as many people raptured as some think. If your not expecting one, then your obviously not watching for the signs of the end times, thus a tendency to get somewhat complacent. I think that's part of what the whole be ready, don't get caught off guard, watch the signs spiel is all about. But I think it's also possible that there will be a great deception -- I'm talking about on a possible supernatural level -- before the rapture that may dupe a lot of Christians (hence the warning in Mat 24:23-27), which also may be why we are to watch and be wary.

[RCNicholas]

Not that I necessarily believe in a rapture -- more like 60-40 sure -- but I honestly don't think there will be as many people raptured as some think. If your not expecting one, then your obviously not watching for the signs of the end times, thus a tendency to get somewhat complacent. I think that's part of what the whole be ready, don't get caught off guard, watch the signs spiel is all about. But I think it's also possible that there will be a great deception -- I'm talking about on a possible supernatural level -- before the rapture that may dupe a lot of Christians (hence the warning in Mat 24:23-27), which also may be why we are to watch and be wary.

Generally the warning in Matt. 24 is regarded by Pre-Tribbers as a reference to the Great Tribulation, not a time before the Rapture. In regards to watching and being wary, it is specifically talking about watching and being wary for the day of the Lord, because it is coming "like a thief in the night." My point is, if we're not going to be part of the day of the Lord because we're Raptured right before it, why would we need to watch and be sober? One day we're just going to be pleasantly surprised by the fact that, hey, I hear a trumpet and I'm being levitated into the air to be with Christ. AFTER that is when all the bad stuff goes down.

[seanD]

Generally the warning in Matt. 24 is regarded by Pre-Tribbers as a reference to the Great Tribulation, not a time before the Rapture. In regards to watching and being wary, it is specifically talking about watching and being wary for the day of the Lord, because it is coming "like a thief in the night." My point is, if we're not going to be part of the day of the Lord because we're Raptured right before it, why would we need to watch and be sober? One day we're just going to be pleasantly surprised by the fact that, hey, I hear a trumpet and I'm being levitated into the air to be with Christ. AFTER that is when all the bad stuff goes down.

I usually don't go along with the rest of the herd, regardless of which label it is -- pre-trib, post-trib, mid... etc etc. I tend to lean towards a rapture at some point during the trib, but exactly when I don't know. My view is that Jesus was warning us to be sober because the great deception will occur before the rapture. The deception will be so great that those not wary of the warning will get sucked in.

Mat 24:23-28" Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

The part in bold is the rapture, IMO, because it comes in the same context as the verses of the warning of the deception and how the rapture will occur. In other words, Jesus was saying: "Don't believe any claims or appearances of Christ, no matter how convincing they may seem, because when I come, you'll know its me. You won't have to go searching me, because I'll gather you unto myself."

This is separated from Mat 24:30-31, which is his actual second coming after the tribulation that everyone will see, as recorded in Rev 19:11-15.

[RCNicholas]

I usually don't go along with the rest of the herd, regardless of which label it is -- pre-trib, post-trib, mid... etc etc. I tend to lean towards a rapture at some point during the trib, but exactly when I don't know. My view is that Jesus was warning us to be sober because the great deception will occur before the rapture. The deception will be so great that those not wary of the warning will get sucked in.

Mat 24:23-28" Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

The part in bold is the rapture, IMO, because it comes in the same context as the verses of the warning of the deception and how the rapture will occur. In other words, Jesus was saying: "Don't believe any claims or appearances of Christ, no matter how convincing they may seem, because when I come, you'll know its me. You won't have to go searching me, because I'll gather you unto myself."

This is separated from Mat 24:30-31, which is his actual second coming after the tribulation that everyone will see, as recorded in Rev 19:11-15.

Without going into details about your view, I can see that my question doesn't really apply to you because you don't really believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and your view of the timing of the end times is clearly distinct from a normative dispensational view. That's why my OP question is directed at Pre-Tribbers.

[seanD]

Without going into details about your view, I can see that my question doesn't really apply to you because you don't really believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and your view of the timing of the end times is clearly distinct from a normative dispensational view. That's why my OP question is directed at Pre-Tribbers.

Okie dokie. I'd be curious to see if there are actually any bonafide "pre-tribbers" left.

[jds22]

Former pre-tribber here.

What I was taught was that we need to be on guard, for lack of a better term, and make sure we weren't doing something we shouldn't be doing when the rapture happens. So make sure you don't have a beer in your hand because you don't want to get caught with that when Jesus comes back. Make sure you aren't listening to or watching anything you shouldn't be in case Jesus comes back, etc.

Very legalistic if you ask me.

Probably not as detailed an answer as you were hoping for but that's what I was taught. BTW, that came mostly from independent baptist churches.

[RCNicholas]

Former pre-tribber here.

What I was taught was that we need to be on guard, for lack of a better term, and make sure we weren't doing something we shouldn't be doing when the rapture happens. So make sure you don't have a beer in your hand because you don't want to get caught with that when Jesus comes back. Make sure you aren't listening to or watching anything you shouldn't be in case Jesus comes back, etc.

Very legalistic if you ask me.

Probably not as detailed an answer as you were hoping for but that's what I was taught. BTW, that came mostly from independent baptist churches.

Thanks for the response, even if it's given in hindsight. My response would be that Paul seems to be saying, be on guard and watchful for the day of the Lord, not the Rapture, because it's coming like a thief in the night. But why do we need to be on guard for something we're gonna be Raptured away from?

PS - what eschatological position do you hold now?

[jds22]

Thanks for the response, even if it's given in hindsight. My response would be that Paul seems to be saying, be on guard and watchful for the day of the Lord, not the Rapture, because it's coming like a thief in the night. But why do we need to be on guard for something we're gonna be Raptured away from?

PS - what eschatological position do you hold now?

Most likely preterist/amil.

I say most likely because I'm not dogmatic about it like I used to be. I find that there is just too much bickering about it and no single eschatological position has all the answers. That being said, I find there is more evidence pointing to a preterist position than a futurist position.

But you know, at the end of the day, it's all about salvation thru Christ isn't it. None of us have all the answers and we'll eventually find out what we were right about and what we were wrong about.

I just don't think we'll find out as soon as our futurist brothers think we will.

[RCNicholas]

Any Pre-Trib ppl out there wanna give this a shot?

[John Goddard]

Well, I was talking to my dad the other day, who is firmly dispensationalist and so believes in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and I asked him about 1 Thess. 5, which refers to the "day of the Lord." He believes the "day of the Lord" is the literal 7-year Tribulation followed by the 1,000-year literal reign of Christ on Earth. Also, 1 Thess. 4, for those who don't know, is a famous Pre-Trib proof-text for the Rapture, which is distinct in their minds from the day of the Lord. Chapter 5 says that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night," (verse 2)and, "Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." (verse 6) My question to him was, why would we need to watch and be sober for the day of the Lord, if we're automatically going to be Raptured out of here before it even starts? Thoughts from believers in a Pre-Trib Rapture on this?

I only believe in 3.5 years Trib of the Olive Tree Prophets who are Jew and Christian saint/virgins of Romans 11:17, martyred Revelation 11:7/Revelation 20:4, then Resurrected in the end when Jesus returns post-Trib in 1 Corinthians 15:23. So the First Resurrection is my "Rapture."

But if I did believe in pre-Trib Rapture, then the answer is simple and basically the same as my version of martyrdom: remain sober and ready or else you may not be Raptured, or Resurrected as the case may be, even though you expect to be just because you are a Christian.

[franktalk]

Pre-trib here. But I accept I could be wrong.

I see this in the same light as the virgins that were not ready with their oil for their lamps. They missed the boat. Or in this case they missed the rapture. So you must be constantly filling your lamp which may mean you must be constantly asking to be forgiven of sin and asking for an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In this case the oil in the lamp could be representing the Holy Spirit and the trimmed wick could be without sin.

Of course I could be wrong. But this is the way I see it.

[John Goddard]

Pre-trib here. But I accept I could be wrong.

I see this in the same light as the virgins that were not ready with their oil for their lamps. They missed the boat. Or in this case they missed the rapture. So you must be constantly filling your lamp which may mean you must be constantly asking to be forgiven of sin and asking for an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In this case the oil in the lamp could be representing the Holy Spirit and the trimmed wick could be without sin.

Of course I could be wrong. But this is the way I see it.

I see the Foolish Virgins as those Christians who kinda-sorta believe in Jesus but swear allegiance to the USA as Rome with its pagan goddesses of Libertas and Justitia, and swear allegiance to Herod as the State of Israel which spits on Jesus as its Messiah.

I can't be any more blunt about it.

I could make JP Holding et al look like pet rabbits in comparison with riposte. But in summary, preterists and a lot of others here are blind to signs of the times.

[GeekDaddy]

Pre-tribber here. I would agree that verse 6 seems to be saying "Do everything as if Jesus could return at any minute. Would you want Him to catch you doing what you're doing?" I say that based upon vv 7-8 which says those who sleep and get drunk do so at night but we are children of the day, so we should continue to show faith and love and continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I do not agree that some bona fide Christians will miss the Rapture because of vv 9-10 which says that we are not meant for God's day of wrath and whether we are awake or asleep (doing what we should be or even doing what we shouldn't), we will be called up to join with Him.

IMO

BTW: Being a recovering eschatology addict, I only want to say that personal eschatologies are like belly buttons. Everyone has one and they all get a little fuzzy from time to time! :)

[John Goddard]

Pre-tribber here....I do not agree that some bona fide Christians will miss the Rapture...

Who are those Elect that are beheaded during Tribulation if even fair weather Christians escape it? Doesn't make any sense.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.