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Cogito ergo sum

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The 'brain in a vat argument.'

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  • The 'brain in a vat argument.'

    I have never liked this argument for many reasons, but mainly because it does not reflect the reality of the science of the relationship between the brain, and the mind and consciousness. The following reference is a beginning and describes the problem well. I sometimes call it the Frankenstein argument.

    Source: http://mindandphilosophy.blogspot.com/2013/05/philosophy-brain-in-vat-argument-truth.html



    But what is brain in a vat? Imagine an evil scientist whose advanced knowledge enables him to remove your brain and put it in a vat with all nutrients which are necessary to maintain the organ alive. Before your brain was removed it had been receiving electrical signals via neurons in your body. Now it is placed in a vat in the evil scientist’s laboratory and receives signals by electrical stimulation coming from a laboratory computer…

    The scientist is able to stimulate your brain in whatever way he wants to – he is able to create an impression that you are reading Mind and Philosophy blog as if it were the neurons carrying this information to your brain. He may create an impression that you eat your lunch, read a book etc. There is no way you could realise that you are a brain in a vat since your world perception is limited to your brain. If it is damaged or under narcotic influence, you may experience hallucinations or have a distorted vision of your environment.

    René Descartes provides an argument which is often used to refute the theory of the brain in a vat. Cogito ergo sum – I think, therefore I am. However, this argument has often been criticised for its hidden premise: “All that thinks exists”. Neither did Descartes justify the premise, nor did he mention it. It should be stressed that it is impossible to justify or (dis)prove this premise. If you (as a brain in a vat) thinks – does it mean that you exist?

    How much of your body can you lose to still be yourself? Are you the same person when you need to have your leg amputated? Most will agree that you are. If you have all four limbs amputated, are you still the same human being? Undoubtedly you are. What would you have to lose to stop being who you are? Does the fact that the brain is kept alive in the laboratory means that it has any consciousness or is it justified to refer to it as to the same person from which it was removed? What about organ donors? If you need a transplantation and, say a liver, is introduced to your body no doctor will tell you that another person is living in you. Why? A liver is not conscious, it is not a person. Why do so many philosophers attribute consciousness or self to this one particular organ – brain?

    This brings up the unsolved mind and body problem which lies at the heart of philosophy of mind. What is the relationship between mind and body? Are they interdependent? There is a hidden monistic assumption in the brain in a vat argument. It assumes that consciousness is material and may be explained in terms of neurochemical transmission. If one assumes dualistic perspective and states that not everything is material, then the brain in a vat argument proves nothing as it limits consciousness merely to one, and from medical perspective the most important, organ. Can consciousness exist outside the body? What are your opinions?

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    I think a more modern spin on the argument would phrase it as "is the world a computer game?" Immersive, virtual reality, computer simulations are getting better and better. It's only a matter of time before people who enter a VR game won't be able to tell the difference between it and the real world apart from their memories. Imagine we could administer them a medicine that made them temporarily forget their past memories when starting the game...
    ...thus bringing us back to the question of is the world a virtual reality computer game and are we players in it?

    If you (as a brain in a vat) thinks – does it mean that you exist?
    Um, I don't even get the point of questioning this premise. Of course it is true. If you are thinking, you exist... that seems blindingly obvious. There's nothing wrong with Descartes' "I think, therefore I am."
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I think a more modern spin on the argument would phrase it as "is the world a computer game?" Immersive, virtual reality, computer simulations are getting better and better. It's only a matter of time before people who enter a VR game won't be able to tell the difference between it and the real world apart from their memories. Imagine we could administer them a medicine that made them temporarily forget their past memories when starting the game...
      ...thus bringing us back to the question of is the world a virtual reality computer game and are we players in it?

      Um, I don't even get the point of questioning this premise. Of course it is true. If you are thinking, you exist... that seems blindingly obvious. There's nothing wrong with Descartes' "I think, therefore I am."
      This theme is interestingly followed through by Nick Bostrom's concept of living in a computer simulation. “Bostrom suggested that members of an advanced “posthuman” civilization with vast computing power might choose to run simulations of their ancestors in the universe.

      This argument is extrapolated from observing current trends in technology, including the rise of virtual reality and efforts to map the human brain. If we believe that there is nothing supernatural about what causes consciousness and it’s merely the product of a very complex architecture in the human brain, we’ll be able to reproduce it. “Soon there will be nothing technical standing in the way to making machines that have their own consciousness.”

      https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...usk-the-matrix
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        This theme is interestingly followed through by Nick Bostrom's concept of living in a computer simulation. “Bostrom suggested that members of an advanced “posthuman” civilization with vast computing power might choose to run simulations of their ancestors in the universe.
        Well in Star Trek the characters enjoy using the holodeck to experience the 1920s etc. It's quite normal for people to enjoy historical fiction or non-fiction.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          I liked this reference as a beginning, because it asks questions that are relevant to the discussion. It is a thought experiment that is hypothetical, and not very 'real' as to the question as to what is the reality of the relationship between the brain and the mind and consciousness.

          The problem arises when many theist apologists extrapolate this thought experiment as if it is 'real' to negate the possibility that the mind and consciousness is a natural product of the brain. It is often paired up with the argument that science cannot explain or even ever explain this relationship as a natural physical one. The common objection to 'natural determinism' is also paired with the 'Frankenstein argument to conclude if so we would be robotic animations with no free will.

          The Descartes 'I think therefore I am' is also a 'thought experiment' without a necessary conclusion. I 'believe' it is true, but it is not necessarily true, and it is weak argument if one wants to extrapolate it to logically resolve the 'mind body' question. The identity 'I think therefore I am' could very will be simply physical natural reality of what we are as humans.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Another thing to think about. Are you "you" only because of your memories? If say you woke up one day and could not remember your past life at all, would you still be the same person? We forget things all the time. And our past experiences influence who we are today, but once we ARE that person, can we lose those memories and essentially be the same person? Not talking about Alzheimer's which of course has a lot of other problems than merely memory loss. I am talking about if you were perfectly healthy, and just could not remember any events in your past, but could remember things like language, driving a car, eating, etc. and would be normal going forward. Basically the classic TV idea of "amnesia"

            I think you would still the the same YOU that you are today, but just not remember anything. You would not turn into a crazed serial killer, or some other person completely different from yourself. I think basically, you would be the same person, with the same personality.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Another thing to think about. Are you "you" only because of your memories?
              Maybe, maybe not, but I have no objective evidence to think this is so.

              If say you woke up one day and could not remember your past life at all, would you still be the same person?
              Most likely, but with amnesia.

              We forget things all the time. And our past experiences influence who we are today, but once we ARE that person, can we lose those memories and essentially be the same person? Not talking about Alzheimer's which of course has a lot of other problems than merely memory loss. I am talking about if you were perfectly healthy, and just could not remember any events in your past, but could remember things like language, driving a car, eating, etc. and would be normal going forward. Basically the classic TV idea of "amnesia"
              This is all possible and would not necessarily reflect who we are.

              I think you would still [be] the same YOU that you are today, but just not remember anything. You would not turn into a crazed serial killer, or some other person completely different from yourself. I think basically, you would be the same person, with the same personality.
              True most of the time, but it has been demonstrated that head injuries and disease has altered personalities.

              Source: http://www.brainline.org/landing_pages/categories/behavioralsymptoms.html



              Brain Injury Symptoms Behavioral & Emotional Symptoms

              A young man is soft-spoken and gentle. During his college football career, he sustains several concussions. In his late 20s, he is fired from his job for his uncontrollable bouts of anger. His girlfriend leaves him, and his parents are at their wits’ end with his behavior. He doesn’t recognize himself; he feels out of control. It’s as if someone else is controlling his body and mind. When he finally seeks help, he is diagnosed with mild traumatic brain injury, a result of the repeated blows to his head.

              Why behaviors and emotions can change after TBI
              Depending on what part or parts of a person’s brain are injured, the individual may experience significant behavioral and emotional changes. The frontal lobe, for example, helps govern personality and impulsivity. If damaged, there might be no “braking mechanism” for self-control. A person may find he cannot control his anger or aggression. He may also make inappropriate comments to friends or strangers not realizing they are off color.

              Or the opposite might happen … someone’s personality may become muted or seemingly emotionless. This is called “flat affect.”

              Some of the most common behavioral and emotional problems people with TBI can experience include:

              Verbal outbursts
              Physical outbursts
              Poor judgment and disinhibition
              Impulsive behavior
              Negativity
              Intolerance
              Apathy
              Egocentricity
              Rigidity and inflexibility
              Risky behavior
              Lack of empathy
              Lack of motivation or initiative
              Depression or anxiety

              © Copyright Original Source

              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Maybe, maybe not, but I have no objective evidence to think this is so.



                Most likely, but with amnesia.
                that is what I think. After all, I don't go around remembering everything in my past at any given moment. It is there if I need it, but most days I don't really think about what I did a year ago or what happened to me as a child, or teenager, etc.






                True
                most of the time, but it has been demonstrated that head injuries and disease has altered personalities.
                Oh definitely. That is why I specifically said completely healthy in every way, just without memory of the past. Classic TV Amnesia or "brain wipe"

                I think there is a core "us" that is not just our memories. It stands alone. You can call it your base personality, your soul, whatever, but I think we all have it. It is what makes us "ME" - I think if you could take two very different people and implant identical memories in them, you would still end up with two very different people. They might have the same memories, but they would not act the same way. Their core personality would still show through.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  that is what I think. After all, I don't go around remembering everything in my past at any given moment. It is there if I need it, but most days I don't really think about what I did a year ago or what happened to me as a child, or teenager, etc.
                  OK

                  True Oh definitely. That is why I specifically said completely healthy in every way, just without memory of the past. Classic TV Amnesia or "brain wipe."

                  I think there is a core "us" that is not just our memories. It stands alone. You can call it your base personality, your soul, whatever, but I think we all have it. It is what makes us "ME" - I think if you could take two very different people and implant identical memories in them, you would still end up with two very different people. They might have the same memories, but they would not act the same way. Their core personality would still show through.
                  First, I believe in the soul, but independent of the brain, mind or our consciousness, and yes it is what is ultimately "ME". Our mind and consciousness reflect aspects of the soul, but the soul is not dependent on our brain mind or consciousness for its nature, identity nor character. If my brain, mind and consciousness were altered by physical injury, genetic damage or abnormalities, or disease it would not necessarily show through.

                  If you were able to implant two identical memories in two different people the brains are not the same, and the individuality of the two different people would remain naturally two different people. I believe the identity of the soul remain the original identity regardless of the implanted memory.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-20-2016, 03:57 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Well in Star Trek the characters enjoy using the holodeck to experience the 1920s etc. It's quite normal for people to enjoy historical fiction or non-fiction.
                    Ah, I bow to your superior knowledge in this area.

                    But do you agree with the assertion: “Soon there will be nothing technical standing in the way to making machines that have their own consciousness."
                    Last edited by Tassman; 12-20-2016, 11:11 PM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      OK



                      First, I believe in the soul, but independent of the brain, mind or our consciousness, and yes it is what is ultimately "ME". Our mind and consciousness reflect aspects of the soul, but the soul is not dependent on our brain mind or consciousness for its nature, identity nor character. If my brain, mind and consciousness were altered by physical injury, genetic damage or abnormalities, or disease it would not necessarily show through.

                      If you were able to implant two identical memories in two different people the brains are not the same, and the individuality of the two different people would remain naturally two different people. I believe the identity of the soul remain the original identity regardless of the implanted memory.
                      sounds like we actually have something we can agree on. Mostly. I think the physical brain does affect us. Disease can alter our personality and change "who we are" to a certain extent.

                      This is nothing but a wacky theory of mine, but I think that the brain functions as a soul/body interface. It lets our soul interact with the physical world. But as such it also affects things like mood, personality, memory, etc. When we die, our soul or spirit will retain our perfect selves, unaffected by the physical brain, but while we are alive, a damaged brain can hold back important memories, or make it harder for us to think or move, etc. The chemicals in the brain can affect our emotions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        sounds like we actually have something we can agree on. Mostly. I think the physical brain does affect us. Disease can alter our personality and change "who we are" to a certain extent.

                        This is nothing but a wacky theory of mine, but I think that the brain functions as a soul/body interface. It lets our soul interact with the physical world. But as such it also affects things like mood, personality, memory, etc. When we die, our soul or spirit will retain our perfect selves, unaffected by the physical brain, but while we are alive, a damaged brain can hold back important memories, or make it harder for us to think or move, etc. The chemicals in the brain can affect our emotions.
                        We are actually very close in agreement on the nature of the soul, and the relationship between the brain, mind and consciousness paradigm.

                        I do not believe it is a wacky theory.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          We are actually very close in agreement on the nature of the soul, and the relationship between the brain, mind and consciousness paradigm.

                          I do not believe it is a wacky theory.
                          Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with both Shunya and Sparko. So now we need to talk about whether or not this is a miracle. lol

                          I would add something else to our argument that we KNOW reality out there. I ran into an interesting review of 4 books on physics in New Scientist. Even there we only see through a glass darkly so to speak. The sections I quote show how much we really don't know about that reality out there.

                          Originally posted by Richard Webb, Good Times, Bad Times, New Scientist, Dec 3, 2016, p 44-45
                          "'What fraction of what you know that is important is physics?' Richard A. Muller strikes the unexpected note with this question towards the end of his book Now!
                          ...
                          But all [discoveries-grm] have served to confirm existing pictures of reality, and the standard cosmological model of a big bang universe rooted in Einstein's theory of gravity, the general theory of relativity.
                          "Yet the deficiencies of those two theories are obvious. Not only do they contradict each other, they contradict how we feel reality should behave. Can we do better?
                          "Muller's starting point is time, the most obvious place where our perception or reality and the description given by our physical theories diverge. Relativity robbed reality of a flowing time that neatly separates past from future. It denies the existence of any privileged spot from which we can measure time's passage.
                          "How can a physical theory predict things so at odds with our experience?
                          ...

                          Christian von Baeyer bangs the drum for a new 'Quantum Bayesian' interpretation: the uncertainties that apparently haunt the quantum world before it is measured have little to do with reality being uncertain, and everything to do with us being uncertain about reality. In QBism, quantum theory becomes a theory not of the observed but of the observer."
                          ...
                          "So where does all this leave us? Ultimately physics only describes the part of reality that is susceptible to mathematics-as Muller points out, not least because Kurt Godel's theorems of the 1930s made it clear that nay mathematically based theory will always be incomplete. Efforts such as the push to a quantum theory of gravity may bring us to a more complete understanding but it is likely our vista will remain blurred. No doubt physics is important, but it could be there is much that is important about reality that is not physics."
                          Gravity requires a smooth continuous space-time; quantum requires a digitized space, and it always feels wrong to me that the Planck mass is so much bigger than masses we can measure, so we know that mass is not quantized at this monstrously large (relatively speaking) so why should space be quantized rather than be analogous to the planck mass?

                          In my opinion, Quantum shows that the observer has a very special role in our universe. Every single interpretation of it runs smack into the need for an observer, yet the definition of what constitutes an observer is never really defined.

                          I raise these things because 1. Math is a mental thing and we apply it to the world, and where that math works, we marvel and exclaim that we have understood reality when in fact we only applied a mental model to that which we understand. When it doesn't work we do other problems and leave that area unexplained. 2. When it does work, We then turn around and posit more reality to the matter we have observed, than to the thing that actually did the observing in the first place. This seems to violate priority, at least to me.
                          Last edited by grmorton; 12-23-2016, 01:54 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                            Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with both Shunya and Sparko. So now we need to talk about whether or not this is a miracle. lol


                            Look over toward the horizon.






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                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                              Look over toward the horizon.






                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]20259[/ATTACH]
                              Love the graphic. Merry Christmas everyone.

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