Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Straus on Islamic Terrorism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    "Killing because Jesus commanded them to? "

    The Western Military (U.S. in particular) are an example--- (How is it you do not know this stuff?---do you not follow World news at all? please expand your news consumption diet)

    The Crusader culture of the U.S. military
    Here is a website that celebrates such ugliness
    http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/1...-u-s-military/

    and an article
    http://www.worldbulletin.net/haber/1...he-us-military

    and here an article of how the U.S. military weapons are inscribed with BIBLE VERSES
    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-mil...ory?id=9575794

    (and to be fair---the U.K. military also had problems of this type)
    In case you are unaware---The "Crusades" were a HOLY WAR by the Christian Church....

    and here is news about a controversy about Christian soldiers trying to convert Iraqi and Afghani (sometimes at gunpoint)
    https://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/...stian_military

    ISIS is simply a mirror image of the U.S. culture....except ISIS is fringe---but in the U.S. this culture seems to be mainstream....(even President Trump and his people represents this kind of culture...)

    Comment


    • #17
      Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and other Muslim Generals and their conduct in war....

      First, lets start with the Conduct of (Western)"Christians" during the Crusades and the contrast it with the Muslim General Salahuddin Al Ayubi (A man admired even by his enemies such as Richard the Lionheart)

      https://www.christianhistoryinstitut...ule/crusaders/

      The Crusades were, or at least they seem from a modern perspective, a nightmarish atrocity and one of the worst crimes ever committed in the name of Christ.
      The First Crusade was a great success in taking Jerusalem, Antioch and other biblical cities. But the barbaric violence with which it was done was simply horrific. It was not too long before the cities started falling back into Muslim hands. Many more Crusades followed, but they achieved less and less. Ultimately the Crusades achieved little more than demonstrating what a gulf there is between the teachings of Jesus and the actions of his followers.
      This account is by Raymond d’Aguiliers,
      Now that our men had possession of the walls and towers, we saw some wonderful sights. Some of our men — actually the more merciful ones — cut off the heads of their enemies. Others shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers. Others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. One had to pick one’s way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon. You would not believe it if I told you. Suffice to say that in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and blood.

      ---The Crusaders murdered everyone, Christians, Muslims, Jews...everyone in Jerusalem. It was a massacre...

      Here is an account of the conduct of Salauddin al Ayubi the Muslim General who allowed his enemies to leave Jerusalem.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin
      Capture of Jerusalem
      Saladin had captured almost every Crusader city. Saladin preferred to take Jerusalem without bloodshed and offered generous terms, but those inside refused to leave their holy city, vowing to destroy it in a fight to the death rather than see it handed over peacefully. Jerusalem capitulated to his forces on Friday, 2 October 1187, after a siege. When the siege had started, Saladin was unwilling[citation needed] to promise terms of quarter to the Frankish inhabitants of Jerusalem. Balian of Ibelin threatened to kill every Muslim hostage, estimated at 5,000, and to destroy Islam's holy shrines of the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque if such quarter were not provided. Saladin consulted his council and the terms were accepted. The agreement was read out through the streets of Jerusalem so that everyone might within forty days provide for himself and pay to Saladin the agreed tribute for his freedom.[97] An unusually low ransom for the times (around $50 today) was to be paid for each Frank in the city, whether man, woman, or child, but Saladin, against the wishes of his treasurers, allowed many families who could not afford the ransom to leave.[98][99] Patriarch Heraclius of Jerusalem organised and contributed to a collection that paid the ransoms for about 18,000 of the poorer citizens, leaving another 15,000 to be enslaved. Saladin's brother al-Adil "asked Saladin for a thousand of them for his own use and then released them on the spot." Most of the foot soldiers were sold into slavery.[100] Upon the capture of Jerusalem, Saladin summoned the Jews and permitted them to resettle in the city.[101] In particular, the residents of Ashkelon, a large Jewish settlement, responded to his request.[102]


      Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and war
      The Quran lays down some rules of war---that it should be for a "just cause" which it specifies as against oppression. It should be defensive, the non-combatants and resources of the earth not to be harmed, Prisoners of war to be treated humanely, War should be ended as soon as possible....etc...
      http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...s-of-war0.html

      Prophet Muhammad is history’s first major figure to condemn collateral damage in word and deed. His advanced rules of war established 1400 years ago a yet unmatched humanitarian standard. And herein lies the solution to modern conflict. The Qur’an first describes when fighting is permitted:

      Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged… Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is God’ — And if God did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down temples and churches and synagogues and mosques... (22:40-41).

      Thus, the permission—not commandment—to fight is defensive. And that fighting protects temples, churches, synagogues, and mosques—which is to say, universal religious freedom.
      While critics and extremist groups both love to cite Qur’anic excerpts like “kill them where ye find them,” they ignore that such verses clearly refer to treatment of those who would violently persecute Christians, Jews, or any person because of his faith. Indeed, Muhammad commanded the following uncompromising rules of war:
      O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well…for your guidance in the battlefield! Do not commit treachery, or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.


      The advise to not transgress limits is given in Surah 2 verse 190
      Fight in the cause of God those who fight you
      But do not transgress limits
      For God does not love the transgressors.

      This stance (of self defense) is clarified in Surah 22 verse 39
      To those against whom war is made, permission is given to fight because they have been wronged---and certainly God is most powerful for their aid.

      This concept is further elaborated in the Quran in Surah 60 verses 7, 8, 9.

      7. It may be that God will establish friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies for God is most powerful and God is most forgiving and merciful.
      8. God forbids you not from those who fight you not for your faith or drive you from your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just
      9. God only forbids you with regards to those who fight you and drive you out of your homes, and support others in driving you out of your homes, from turning to them. It is such as turn to them that do wrong.

      The Quran does not advise a half-hearted participation in war---rather that it must be fought well and with speed so as to come to a conclusion as soon as possible (thus sparing lives) and so that peace may be procured
      Surah 8 verse 61.
      But if the enemy incline towards peace, you also incline towards peace and trust in God for he is the one that hears and knows all things.

      This is not just in the Quran but also displayed in the conduct of Prophet (pbuh)
      The Hijra is the start of the Muslim calender and it commemorates the migration of the persecuted Meccan Muslims to the city of Yathrib renamed Medina.
      When such a large influx of refugees come in---it is bound to cause tensions, So the Prophet established a system of mentorship in which the Ansar (mentors of Medina) helped the Meccan Muslim refugees (Muhajirun) by hosting them in their homes. This way the two communities became family and learned each others customs and ways of accommodation for each other.
      The Prophet then proceeded to establish peace treaties with the surrounding communities to further reduce tensions and promote harmony.
      This situation did not please the Meccans who attacked...but after several battles a peace treaty was made between the Meccans and the Prophet (pbuh) ---the treaty of Hudaibiya
      Although this peace treaty was broken by the Meccans forcing the Medinans into battle, upon the surrender of the Meccans the battle ended without bloodshed and the Prophet proclaimed an amnesty.

      Contrast this with the bloody Western wars of the 20th century!! (...or any other century)

      Comment


      • #18
        Siam, this response will be short and sweet because I'll be away from tweb for a while.

        1) The articles you linked to do not substantiate "killing because Jesus commands it". Read the verses inscribed on the weapons and you will learn that this is a case of a religious man engaging in war. This is not a case of a war being waged because his religion obligates and inspires him to engage in war. Indeed, the American military is not mobilized under the auspices and dictates of a certain interpretation of the bible. The American military is not waging war "because Jesus commands and demands it". The same cannot be said of a significant portion of Islam's global population who believe it is their divine prerogative to slay the infidel and/or subject them to Sharia, either peacefully or forcefully.

        2) The crusades: A historical artifact. Not a manifestation of a systemic problem within Christendom. From your article: "Ultimately the Crusades achieved little more than demonstrating what a gulf there is between the teachings of Jesus and the actions of his followers." Again, no modern day Christian's read the bible and gather momentum to wage war because Jesus commands it. No modern day Christian's read the bible and has their hatred for unbelievers grow to the point where killing them is desirable and worthy of celebration. No modern day groups formulate and rally around certain deadly and toxic interpretations of the bible. No serious modern day discussions are being held in Christendom to determine whether toxic and deadly interpretations are correct, justifiable, etc. Modern day belief has transcended such. Can the same be said for Islam?

        3) Muhammad: Was he an exemplary human being despite being a "man of his times"? This is hotly debated and some of his actions as recorded in the authentic Hadiths are disturbing and not easily explained away. I do not have time to get into this and do not desire to link to a video or article because this topic is beyond the purview of the thread.

        Anyway, as always, good discussing matters with you siam.

        God bless.

        Comment


        • #19
          Inshallah may we be able to continue our conversation at a later date.....

          1) It is not my stance that religion inspires murder---this is your position. It is also the position of your own Western thinkers and philosophers that Christianity is "uniquely evil" ---you may not agree with this---but others seem to argue for it......in any case---since I am not a Christian (or a Westerner) I need not take a position on it one way or the other as far as Christianity is concerned...either argument is fine with me....

          2) Again that may be your position---but there may be others who would argue that if simply saying Allahuakbar indicates that religion inspires murder---then, so much more so, when soldiers carry bibles and have verses engraved on their weapons.
          As to Christianity not taking notice of the toxicity of the rhetoric and behavior of some of their fellow Christians who are violent and hate-filled---(examples given previously) that is perhaps a weakness of Christian ethics and values. The lack of Christian response to those who demonize Muslims and others is an indication of the state of moral bankruptcy of Christianity...?.....On the other hand---Muslims ---both ordinary people and scholars---have been active in dealing with the toxicity of ISIS.

          3) The Prophet(pbuh) was a human being and thus his greatness was naturally constrained by the limitations of being human. There is no debate about this---at least within (mainstream) Islam. He is an example of how to implement the wisdom of the Quran and as Muslims it is good to have such a mentor and Guide. That does not dispel the responsibility of every Muslim to make the effort to understand the wisdom of the Quran in our era and circumstances and to strive to implement it within our own unique lives as best we can.

          Personally, I do not agree that religion inspires murder/homicide--I do agree that religions are used as justification for bad actions---but that is not the same as "being inspired"/being the cause. The reason for this is human nature. We are "inspired" by selfishness to take action---whether that action is good, bad, neutral---the essence of our motivations is inherently selfish. However, religions are altruistic and so can inspire towards altruism/selflessness, but excessive selflessness can lead to suicide (martyr ?). That is why Suicide is not permissible in Islam. (Neither is murder). These 2 aspects of human nature have to be balanced---excess in selfishness or selflessness leads to harm.

          But there is something that perhaps religion does inspire/cause in human beings?---Beauty. Tangible beauty such as art, architecture, literature, poetry, music...etc are all enhanced by the aspect of altruism promoted by religion......Intangible beauty such as inner spirituality, building of one's character, the promotion of balance, harmony, tranquility, peace...etc.

          One example of this is Rumi----who is much loved in the West....
          “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
          and rightdoing there is a field.
          I'll meet you there.

          When the soul lies down in that grass
          the world is too full to talk about.”
          ― Jalaluddin Rumi

          or the Taj Mahal or Allhambra
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zHkAowMKrU

          ...art....
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJbf55VJr2I

          song ....(has allahuakbar in it....)
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAuxu_9iQ9M


          Allahu Alim, in the end, it is God who knows best what our inner motivations are and will be our last Judge.

          Comment

          widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
          Working...
          X