Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[JAYMZ]

Do I serve the son or the father ? Lets see.

John 5:21-27. I honor the Son and the Son will judge me.

John 5:43-47, John 6:65, John 7:16-24, John 8:19, John 8:42-47. Thats just the tip.

Barn, do you even read the scriptures we post ?

[smaneck]

I am not familiar with that verse and is that meant to be a warning?

LOL. That is certainly not the significance Muslim mystics have given this verse. Here is the treatment of this passage as found in Sa'adi verse:

"I had, however, opened the door of meaning
and was giving a long explanation of the verse We are nearer unto
Him than the jugular vein till I said:

'The Friend is nearer to me than my self,
But it is more strange that I am far from him.
What am I to do? To whom can it be said that he
Is in my arms, but I am exiled from him.'

I had intoxicated myself with the wine of these sentiments,
holding the remnant of the cup of the sermon in my hand when a
traveller happened to pass near the edge of the assembly, and the last
turn of the circulating cup made such an impression upon him that he
shouted and the others joined him who began to roar, whilst the raw
portion of the congregation became turbulent. Whereon I said:
'Praise be to Allah! Those who are far away but intelligent are in the
presence of Allah, and those who are near but blind are distant.'"

Is the greatest attribute of God His Love?

Every chapter except one of the Qur'an begins with the phrase "In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate." Both the words Mercy (Rahman) and Compassion (Rahim) are derived from an Arabic root meaning womb, so I guess you could say it is more the love of a Mother rather than a Father.

Did God’s Love compel God to create man in the first place?

For the answer to that question we might turn to the Baha'i Writings:

Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Would there be any greater way for someone to show their Love for another than by allowing their innocent perfect only child to sacrifice themselves for that person being love yet deserving of the punishment (torture)?

Yes, for God to do this again and again instead of once and never again as Christians believe.

Do you work hard for God because he has forgiven you or because you want Him to forgive you?

Neither, I work for God for love of His Beauty.

Could you give me references?

Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of
My garment can be smelled, and by their aid the
standards of Victory will be planted upon the highest
peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven
of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation
these words: "Observe My commandments, for the love
of My beauty." Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the
divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words,
laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can 21
describe. By My life! He who hath drunk the choice
wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour
will circle around My commandments that shine above
the Dayspring of My creation.
Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere
code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice
Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this
beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath
revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 20)

God is not a friend of every believer?

Huh?

The difference between Christians and Muslims in this story is the Christians see they are very sinful, but is over come with joy and Love because God for forgiving them those sins, while the Muslim is to turn away from sinning to not feel sorrow for the sins or look back and seek God (like they had not happened?). That is a huge difference!

If we look backwards what we see is not God but our own sinfulness. To see God and be out of the orbit of sin we must be focused on God alone and not our selves. To be absorbed in our own sinfulness is to remain self-centered.

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

I never said it was hateful, im just not going to kid myself that Islamic teachings are favorable to christianity.
Its not about fear. Its about the truth. like I said if muslims truly believed that Jesus Christ was the miracle working Son of God; that he was crucified and defeated death and the grave, they would lean more towards serving him and not Muhammad.

A Muslim would be offended by the suggestion that they serve Muhammad and not God.

I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet of God, and because of that, im not a muslim.

And that's a valid reason.

As for John's Gospel, I think it is fair to say that most Muslims lend more weight to the Synoptic Gospels. But here is what Baha'u'llah has to say on this topic:


"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God.

No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)

Remember, you cant serve two masters.

That's why Muslims insist on serving only God.

[smaneck]

"Christianity" is a sociopolitical entity. At its core, Islam does not deal with worldly matters, rather spiritual ones.

I really have to disagree with you there Barmasha. Christianity has traditionally taught that the world is going to hell and the most they can do is save a few souls from the fry pan. Islam, on the other hand, has consistently focused not on individual salvation but the establishment of a godly community here on earth. That is why the Muslim calendar begins with the hijra. That was when the first Muslim community was formed. If it wanted to be indivdualistic like Christianity it would have dated from Muhammad's birth or at least the occasion of His first revelation.

[Sparko]

I really have to disagree with you there Barmasha. Christianity has traditionally taught that the world is going to hell and the most they can do is save a few souls from the fry pan. Islam, on the other hand, has consistently focused not on individual salvation but the establishment of a godly community here on earth. That is why the Muslim calendar begins with the hijra. That was when the first Muslim community was formed. If it wanted to be indivdualistic like Christianity it would have dated from Muhammad's birth or at least the occasion of His first revelation.

i think that attitude is at the heart of Islam's idea that they can convert the world by the sword. If they can force people to live the way they want them to, to obey Sharia, and to confess that Allah is god and mohammed is his prophet, then they are happy.

Christianity understands that you can't force someone to believe. It has to be an individual decision. You have to choose God and Jesus. Conversion by force is no conversion at all, and simply living by the "rules" does not save either. The Law just shows us how miserably we fail at following it. Only by Christ's sacrifice can we be saved.

[barnasha]

Do I serve the son or the father ?

Yes, that was the question.

[BrotherSka]

Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified AT ALL. For a prophet of God to be hung on a cross is too shameful and they don't think God would allow it. They think that God substituted a look-alike for Jesus on the cross.

They also do not think Jesus was resurrected. They think Jesus was taken bodily into heaven and will return one day.


That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:157)

Muslims also deny the Trinity. Without the Trinity there can be no common ground because we believe in different Gods.

Hi Sparko:

I am not claiming that there is harmony between the Bible and what Muslims believe, but between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. Therefore, simply asserting what you think that Muslims believe is irrelevant. You should provide evidence from the Qur’an about what Muslims are supposed to believe.

The verse that you proffered as evidence does not say that Jesus was not crucified, just that He was not crucified by the Jews, who were boasting about killing Him.

Regards.

[Sparko]

Hi Sparko:

I am not claiming that there is harmony between the Bible and what Muslims believe, but between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. Therefore, simply asserting what you think that Muslims believe is irrelevant. You should provide evidence from the Qur’an about what Muslims are supposed to believe.

The verse that you proffered as evidence does not say that Jesus was not crucified, just that He was not crucified by the Jews, who were boasting about killing Him.

Regards.

No it says he was not crucified and that it only appeared so. if it only appeared he was crucified then that means he was not crucified according to the Quran. no mention that he was crucified but just not by the jews. Read it again

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:157)

It goes on to say that Allah took him up instead. They believe that he was taken directly into heaven, like enoch.

Go find me one muslim source that says Jesus was crucified even by the romans.

Here is a muslim site that says the same thing I did, and gives an answer from a muslim scholar.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543288

[JAYMZ]

Yes, that was the question.

Well, I tried to answer you by Jesus's standard. I'll try again.

John 14:6-14, and Again John 5:22-23. If you honor Christ, you are honoring God.
God equates serving Christ with serving him.

Barn, You are very selective on what scriptures of Jesus you choose to believe in and quote.

[smaneck]

i think that attitude is at the heart of Islam's idea that they can convert the world by the sword.

Except that Muslims have never held they can convert people by the sword. The Qur'an says very explicitly "Let there be no compulsion in religion." There has been much more forcible conversion in the history of Christianity than there is in the history of Islam.

[smaneck]

[SIZE="3"]Hi Sparko:

I am not claiming that there is harmony between the Bible and what Muslims believe, but between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. Therefore, simply asserting what you think that Muslims believe is irrelevant.

I've known hundreds of Muslims and I've never met a single one who believed it was okay to convert people by the sword.

[smaneck]

No it says he was not crucified and that it only appeared so. if it only appeared he was crucified then that means he was not crucified according to the Quran. no mention that he was crucified but just not by the jews. Read it again

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:157)

It goes on to say that Allah took him up instead. They believe that he was taken directly into heaven, like enoch.

Go find me one muslim source that says Jesus was crucified even by the romans.

Here is a muslim site that says the same thing I did, and gives an answer from a muslim scholar.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543288

That's the common interpretation among Muslims today but historically this was not the case.For centuries the meaning of this verse was the subject of fierce debate among Muslims for centuries. In fact the earliest Arab sources seem to indicate that this interpretation may well have originate from the Christian Church.

Read Todd Lawsons *The Crucifixion and the Qur'an.*

[barnasha]

No it says he was not crucified and that it only appeared so.

only if you look at the arabic do you truly understand the plethora of interpretations that can be made.

the choice of language in this particular verse is quite breathtaking, as it is in a lot of the Arabic Quran.

and in fact no matter which way you want to believe in how the crucifixion story actually happened, the quranic verse can be interpreted in favor of that interpretation!

if anyone here has studied the source text in arabic, they will be able to back me up.

this happens to be one of the rare groups of verses which I have studied intensely under guidance of language professionals.

[Sparko]

Except that Muslims have never held they can convert people by the sword. The Qur'an says very explicitly "Let there be no compulsion in religion." There has been much more forcible conversion in the history of Christianity than there is in the history of Islam.

Islam's very beginning was conversion by the sword as Mohammed raided caravans and converted people literally by his sword. Then as his armies grew, he raided whole cities and did the same.

Christianity instead started out as spreading of the gospel, and conversions DESPITE being put to the sword because of what they believed.

[Sparko]

That's the common interpretation among Muslims today but historically this was not the case.For centuries the meaning of this verse was the subject of fierce debate among Muslims for centuries. In fact the earliest Arab sources seem to indicate that this interpretation may well have originate from the Christian Church.

Read Todd Lawsons *The Crucifixion and the Qur'an.*

1. I thought Brotherska was talking about "harmony" between Islam of TODAY and Christianity, not Islam of 500 years ago?

2. You are wrong. Muslims have always denied the Crucifixion. I quoted the Quran to you that says that directly.