Is there any Biblical evidence that proves that Jesus is God?

[BrotherSka]

Hi Everyone:

Previously, the opinions of political and religious rulers were forcibly established as truth. Violent consequences awaited any who would dare try to verify the assumptions upon which their rulers based their opinions. During the past 200 years or so in North America and parts of Europe, persons were able to verify various assumptions without expecting the previous level of persecution.

We should never be afraid to examine claims of truth, because truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny. The nature of Jesus is determined settled by some, and still in dispute by others. What is not in dispute is what is explicitly taught in the Bible. Jesus is described explicitly and repeatedly as the Messiah and the Son of God.

Please provide verses from the Bible that would allow us to conclusively state that Jesus is incontrovertibly God.

Regards.

[JAYMZ]

if you want to deal with those verses I brought up in the other thread, go ahead.
otherwise further response from me will have to wait til tomorrow.

[barnasha]

Hi Everyone:

Previously, the opinions of political and religious rulers were forcibly established as truth. Violent consequences awaited any who would dare try to verify the assumptions upon which their rulers based their opinions. During the past 200 years or so in North America and parts of Europe, persons were able to verify various assumptions without expecting the previous level of persecution.

We should never be afraid to examine claims of truth, because truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny. The nature of Jesus is determined settled by some, and still in dispute by others. What is not in dispute is what is explicitly taught in the Bible. Jesus is described explicitly and repeatedly as the Messiah and the Son of God.

Please provide verses from the Bible that would allow us to conclusively state that Jesus is incontrovertibly God.

Regards.

“to be God" does not make sense, God is a title and refers to a specific god.

fun fact: in the bible, Satan is referred to as "god" too, "god of this world". the same exact word we use for God!

So context is important - and that context is often omitted by casual speakers of the English language, and the colloqiual phrase used by modern day people is wrong for several reasons.

"God is Jesus" is perfectly acceptable, but "Jesus is God" does not make sense, unless meant as if God is merely a title and Jesus deserves that title. I think the latter is what people mean when they say this.

But no man or creation (such as Jesus) can have this title, it would break the first commandment, and go against Jesus' teachings.

I have researched this subject extensively, the bible never explicitly refers to any creation as "being God", although there are many verses which people try to show implicitly link the two.

However, there are a plethora of verses which EXPLICITLY contradict that logic,

Despite these incontrovertible facts , these people are more than willing to shut their eyes to the truth.

This is presumably because they want to spread their own theo-political agenda (their churches "doctrine" they are "supposed to" believe).

[BrotherSka]

if you want to deal with those verses I brought up in the other thread, go ahead.
otherwise further response from me will have to wait til tomorrow.

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Rev 4:10 as evidence that Jesus is God.

The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying (Rev 4:10)

Let us examine the assumption on which the interpretation of evidence is based. For over 1,000 years, it was assumed that Jesus was on the throne being worshiped. In attempting to verify this assumption, we note that at this time, God is on the throne.

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Rev 5:13)

Therefore, Rev 4:10 is not evidence which supports that Jesus is God.

Regards.

[BrotherSka]

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Luke 24:52 as evidence that Jesus is God.

And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Lu 24:32)

The unverified assumption is that this is the same type of worship reserved for God alone. In attempting to verify this assumption, we note that the Greek word for worship has a range of meanings, including to: kiss, faun, crouch, prostrate, reverence, and adore. Therefore, we need to examine the context of each usage. Let us examine some evidence.

When satan wanted Jesus to worship him, he prefixed “fall down” to worship so that there would be no doubt as to the intent. Jesus replied that only God should receive this type of worship and did not include Himself as a recipient. If He had, then we would probably not be having this discussion.

We should note that even when the action of falling down is prefixed to worship, it still may not indicate actual worship. Please note Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant.

The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. (Matthew 18:26)

I do not believe that Jesus was stating that the servant was worshipping his master as we should worship God. Therefore, we may agree that there are some challenges with making conclusive statements on this issue. Let us continue with some explicit evidence.

In John’s account of Jesus with the woman at the well, Jesus clarified that the Father should be worshipped, and again, did not include Himself as a possible recipient.

After Jesus’ death and resurrection, Jesus’ disciples only talked about worshipping God, not Jesus in their letters.

Therefore, while we have no conclusive evidence that Jesus should be worshipped, we do have explicit evidence that God alone should be worshipped.

Regards.

[BrotherSka]

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Titus 2:13 as evidence that Jesus is God.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

The unverified assumption was that Paul was referring to Jesus as ‘the great God’. However, Paul could have been referring to one or two persons. In attempting to verify this assumption, we note that Paul identified Jesus and God as two separate entities in his introduction.

To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. (Titus 1:4)

Further, when Jesus returns, He stated that He will be coming, seated at God’s right had.

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt 26:64)

Therefore, Titus 2:13 is not evidence that Jesus is God.

Regards.

[BrotherSka]

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Philippians 2:9-11 as evidence that Jesus is God.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

Please note that this actually supports the position that God is the Father, and Jesus has been exalted by God. Also, there is no contradiction between this and Isaiah 45:23. Actually, please note the previous verse with follows.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

Further, Hebrews 1:3-4 does not describe angels worshipping Jesus. See below.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:3-4)

Regards.

[BrotherSka]

Hi Barnasha:

Please confirm whether you agree with the following statements.

1. When we refer to God, we are referring to the One God, the Only Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

2. God is explicitly and repeatedly described in the Bible as the Father.

3. Jesus is explicitly and repeatedly described as the Christ and the Son of God.

Regards.

[John Goddard]

Please provide verses from the Bible that would allow us to conclusively state that Jesus is incontrovertibly God.

I'm Adoptionist not Trinitarian, meaning I believe Jesus was born 100% human but eventually has God dwelling in him fully. Much as a prophet, but the most powerful one.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So for all purposes, Jesus was born a man, but now he is God to us and thus, God in the flesh.

[Littlejoe]

Brother Ska,

What translation/version are you using? Because your rendering of Titus 2:13 isn't found in any translation I can see. Anyone can change a word in a verse and change the context. Changing the verse from "...our God and Saviour..." to "...the God and Saviour..." needs to be backed up before you can have us assume your interpretation.

Other verses:

John 1:1 together with John 1:14,

John 20:28

1 Timothy 3:16

I am interested to see if you are planning on changing the verses to suit your fancy or not....

LJ

[barnasha]

Hi Barnasha:

Please confirm whether you agree with the following statements.

1. When we refer to God, we are referring to the One God, the Only Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

2. God is explicitly and repeatedly described in the Bible as the Father.

3. Jesus is explicitly and repeatedly described as the Christ and the Son of God.

Regards.

I don't see anything incorrect...

question: was Jesus more often referred to as "the son of God" or "a son of God" per the Greek language? Is it true that Greek has no "a/an", and only a "the"...

question: Jesus's habit was to call the Almighty "our father" - is that found in earlier sources?

[JAYMZ]

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Philippians 2:9-11 as evidence that Jesus is God.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

Please note that this actually supports the position that God is the Father, and Jesus has been exalted by God. Also, there is no contradiction between this and Isaiah 45:23. Actually, please note the previous verse with follows.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

Further, Hebrews 1:3-4 does not describe angels worshipping Jesus. See below.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:3-4)

Regards.

sorry, left out verse 6. Hebrews 1:3-6.

That should help clarify things about angels subject to christ.

[JAYMZ]

Colossians 1:15-16. Paul is attributing the creation to Christ. Also keep in mind that " firstborn " is not translated as a order of creation. It is used ( here ) as a tiltle of eminence.

Also, calling someone the son of God implies deity.

[JAYMZ]

Hi Jaymz

You have offered Philippians 2:9-11 as evidence that Jesus is God.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

Please note that this actually supports the position that God is the Father, and Jesus has been exalted by God. Also, there is no contradiction between this and Isaiah 45:23. Actually, please note the previous verse with follows.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

Further, Hebrews 1:3-4 does not describe angels worshipping Jesus. See below.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:3-4)

Regards.

BrotherSka,
So...........what your saying is that this one human ( Jesus ), out of all other people or prophets, God finally decided to share his power and glory with another person or thing ? In Philippians 2:9-11, God is ok with " knees bowing " before Christ ?

It might help the conversation if you tell us what your understanding of the trinity is.

I dont think you understand the relational aspect between the Father and the Son.( and we havent even brought the Holy Spirit into this equation yet )

[JAYMZ]

Also compare Colossians 1:6 with Rev 14:6-7. Is Paul right or are the angels right. Id say they're both right.