Is it ok to hit or beat wives ?

[barnasha]

Shariah law allows beating as long as it is not on the face, or causes bruises or broken bones. Therefore most cases of hitting would not break the law and would not be reported.

Firstly, "shariah law" is a legal framework, not a legal code. Just like 'common law', or 'civil law'. Here, you are just providing source material which could be used to implement a legal code within "shariah" law.

Secondly, you did not show any examples of actual laws that allow for spousal abuse. That's fine if that's not what you meant or you were unclear in the previous post.

Finally, the citation you provided is contradictory in multiple ways to your argument, it says that while hitting your spouse is a "lawful practice", it (a) should not be used except as a last resort, and (b) should not cause any physical harm.

[Sparko]

Firstly, "shariah law" is a legal framework, not a legal code. Just like 'common law', or 'civil law'. Here, you are just providing source material which could be used to implement a legal code within "shariah" law.

Secondly, you did not show any examples of actual laws that allow for spousal abuse. That's fine if that's not what you meant or you were unclear in the previous post.

sorry barny but I don't have any legal code books from any muslim countries at hand. I do know that muslim run countries base their laws on the Shariah law though. Do you have any laws that you can show that it is illegal to beat your wife in a muslim country?

Here is an article about a Saudi Judge who says it's OK to slap your wife. I would think he knows the laws of his country:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/slap-you...0511-azdr.html

Finally, the citation you provided is contradictory in multiple ways to your argument, it says that while hitting your spouse is a "lawful practice", it (a) should not be used except as a last resort, and (b) should not cause any physical harm.

right you can beat your wife as a last resort, and as long as it doesn't leave any marks. That makes it ok.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barney-boy,

It is NOT slanderous, nor is it any 'false accusation'!!

The shariah courts and indeed Sharia Law itself, take their authority and thus the cue, from the QURAN, period!

So when Sura an-nisaa 4/34 explicitly espouses the beating of muslim wives, it is a GIVEN in islamic practices and societies.

THUS, in all the southeast Asian muslim majority countries, all potential muslim married couples are put through a marriage counselling Course on "How to Beat your Wives Properly".

Thus, like I said, it is A GIVEN in all muslim societies that muslim husbands CAN BEAT THEIR WIVES to control them. The sanction for this WIFE BEATING originates from the Quran ITSELF!

Denying that, barney - is merely an exercise in futility.

W'salam, Dan.

Firstly, "shariah law" is a legal framework, not a legal code. Just like 'common law', or 'civil law'. Here, you are just providing source material which could be used to implement a legal code within "shariah" law.

Secondly, you did not show any examples of actual laws that allow for spousal abuse. That's fine if that's not what you meant or you were unclear in the previous post.

Finally, the citation you provided is contradictory in multiple ways to your argument, it says that while hitting your spouse is a "lawful practice", it (a) should not be used except as a last resort, and (b) should not cause any physical harm.

[barnasha]

Sparko,

why don't you cross reference with the entire body of knowledge to see if your conclusion is correct.

"Do not hit the maidservants of Allah!"
- Prophet Muhammad

"Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
- Prophet Muhammad

"Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih*). Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."
- Prophet Muhammad

`Ata' said: "I asked Ibn `Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih [ not indecent / allowed ] ?' He replied: '[With] the siwak [ TOOTHPICK ] and the like'."

Hope that lays to rest your suspicions based on the Quranic excerpt you mentioned.

We'll see what you care more about: women's rights or trashing islam. So far, it seems to be the latter.

[Dan Zebiri]

When Sura an-nisaa 4/34 explicitly espouses the beating of muslim wives, it is a GIVEN in islamic practices and societies..:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted,

sura an-nisaa 4/34

This quranic verse, above has never been abrogated or is an ayah mansuh, it is a naskh verse. It is a valid and effective verse in quranic exegesis.

Thus, it is practised all over the islamic world. What is??

Wife beating, to control them, of course.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

why don't you cross reference with the entire body of knowledge to see if your conclusion is correct.

"Do not hit the maidservants of Allah!"
- Prophet Muhammad

"Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
- Prophet Muhammad

"Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih*). Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."
- Prophet Muhammad

`Ata' said: "I asked Ibn `Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih [ not indecent / allowed ] ?' He replied: '[With] the siwak [ TOOTHPICK ] and the like'."

Hope that lays to rest your suspicions based on the Quranic excerpt you mentioned.

We'll see what you care more about: women's rights or trashing islam. So far, it seems to be the latter.

well Barney, The Quran says you can beat your wife. The Sharia law says you can beat your wife, and a judge in Saudi says you can beat your wife.

So I don't think there is any question that Muslims can legally beat their wives. Just how badly and for what reasons.

[Dan Zebiri]

And don't you conveniently forget it, barney (and sparko), muslim pre-marital courses ALL OVER the islamic world TEACH ACTIVELY to the muslim husband-to-be, How To Beat their Wives Properly! too...

So what does that tell us all?? The quran does teach wife beating to muslim husbands as a valid means to CONTROL THEIR WIVES.

Yep, indeed, it is all about controlling them poor muslim wives.

WHAT kind of religion is islam, that has the inhuman gumption to enjoin such a wicked and cruel injunction!!

Such a religion, to all the enlightened world, is totally out of touch with the reality of compassion, civility and true love between a husband and his wife.

It is thus to me - and many other Ex-muslims who have LEFT and abandoned islam, a 'religion' and an idealogy that cannot meet the real needs of any society on the Earth, much less establish a state that is just or righteous BY ANY MEASURE.

W'sallam, Dan.

[DesertBerean]

Barnasha,

Why don't your laws and regulations just come right out and say, DON'T use physical force of any degree against the wife? Especially with all the protestations of caring about women's rights and dignity.

[Dan Zebiri]

Hi Desertberean,

Greetings, actually they can't.

When the quran itself already said it - clearly in sura 4/34, all the islamic 'legislators' just cannot undo or nullify what the quran claims!

They just cannot go against this misogynic injunction and call to wife-beating that is found in their so-called 'holy book' - the quran!

If they do that, or even try, they may not live very long to see the light of day after that! That is what islamic fear does to hold muslims down tyranically, even to cruel, inhuman practices.

Which are what they really are, my friend.

Regards, Dan.

[DesertBerean]

Then that, I guess is the answer to blm2007's question isn't it? In Islam, one cannot stop the beating of wives. Islam can only limit how husbands in how they do it.

[barnasha]

Barnasha,

Why don't your laws and regulations just come right out and say, DON'T use physical force of any degree against the wife? Especially with all the protestations of caring about women's rights and dignity.

the verse is question is arguing against the use of even merely symbolic physical contact， and outright forbidding abuse of even a minor nature.

i suggest you read the entire thread where i pointed out some other information which clearly shows that physical abuse is against the teachings of Islam.

this will be true no matter how much you search for a justification for spouse abuse in Islam.

the question is - why are you searching for that?

[DesertBerean]

Barnasha,

The dishonesty is on YOUR part. Even blm2007, your fellow Muslim, recognizes that the verse allows for beating the wife. His question is twofold: (1) why are some Muslim men being HARSH with their wives, and (2) should beating be stopped or not?

You must answer from your context and that's what we've been pointing out the entire thread.

Has anyone noticed that blm2007 hasn't come back to his own thread? Makes one wonder doesn't it?

[Dan Zebiri]

Barney,

Pretending to look the other way again - in the face of the facts, we see...!

I'd like to see your reply to my response to your previous post, my reply is reposted here:

And don't you conveniently forget it, barney, muslim pre-marital courses ALL OVER the islamic world TEACH ACTIVELY to the muslim husband-to-be, How To Beat their Wives Properly! too...

So what does that tell us all?? The quran does teach wife beating to muslim husbands as a valid means to CONTROL THEIR WIVES.

Yep, indeed, it is all about controlling them poor muslim wives.

WHAT kind of religion is islam, that has the inhuman gumption to enjoin such a wicked and cruel injunction!!

Such a religion, to all the enlightened world, is totally out of touch with the reality of compassion, civility and true love between a husband and his wife.

It is thus to me - and many other Ex-muslims who have LEFT and abandoned islam, a 'religion' and an idealogy that cannot meet the real needs of any society on the Earth, much less establish a state that is just or righteous BY ANY MEASURE.

W'sallam, Dan.

[Trespaser5]

Barney,

Pretending to look the other way again - in the face of the facts, we see...!

I'd like to see your reply to my response to your previous post, my reply is reposted here:

And don't you conveniently forget it, barney, muslim pre-marital courses ALL OVER the islamic world TEACH ACTIVELY to the muslim husband-to-be, How To Beat their Wives Properly! too...

So what does that tell us all?? The quran does teach wife beating to muslim husbands as a valid means to CONTROL THEIR WIVES.

Yep, indeed, it is all about controlling them poor muslim wives.

WHAT kind of religion is islam, that has the inhuman gumption to enjoin such a wicked and cruel injunction!!

As someone objectivelly looking at this arguement I could sat that Dan, sparko and DesertBerean have formed their view of Islam and are therefore looking to build their arguement to validate their views rather than listening barnasha arguments and constructing there arguement around his replies which is probably why the last 8 posts essentially repeat themselves. (I'm not saying your wrong it's just an observation) So as it's an open forum I'll put my pennysworth in, there is no doubt that the quote from sura 4/34 is ominous in it's wording and I'll be honest when I first read this thread I cringed at the thought that wife beating might be condoned from a religious prespective and at first look it is. However could 'Barnasha' be given the benefit of the doubt because the qu'ran is a book he has faith in and he studies with the intensity that christians, or we study the bible. Barnasha has refrained from retaliating with quotes from within the old testament that could portray yahweh as a god of war that uses ethnic cleansing to clear a land for use by the israelites or directs the stoning of adulterers but that rapists should only throw acouple of silver coins at the father of their victim, presumably not as compensation for the emotional and physical trauma of the victim but rather as compensation for her diminished 'worth'. I am not the first on this thread to ellude to this but I do think it's a point worth reitterating.

And don't you conveniently forget it, barney, muslim pre-marital courses ALL OVER the islamic world TEACH ACTIVELY to the muslim husband-to-be, How To Beat their Wives Properly! too...

I admit this is disturbing and I wouldn't like to speak for barnasha but personally I don't like alot of things done throughout the world by christians, I personally don't like the fact that the Catholic Church Systematically covered up the worst kind of child abuse for time un known, I don't like the fact that in Uganda they are passing a legislation to outlaw homosexuality that is actively supported by their national anglican communion. (I'm sure these are debates for another thread)
The point I'm making is that I believe Christianity is a religion of love, respect, compassion and justice and I believe that when I read the bible, the teachings are to be taken in that context. I don't hold that to be an exclusively Christian practice so that is why I come to Barnasha's and ultimately Islam's defence.
Any way just different perspective on the issue, you lot are far more advanced than I within this subject area so i'm sure you'll eat me alive
Thanks
Kyle

[barnasha]

doesnt matter. its not ok to physically abuse anyone, your wife or husband, kids, friends, strangers -- even your enemies if we listen to Jesus.

I know its wrong and I don't need a book to tell me, and if a book says otherwise, it is wrong.

if anyone here wants to do something constructive to help humankind, go find reasons why its wrong to physically abuse another human being and preach those, rather than come up for reasons why you think physical abuse is right.

the world does not need people coming up with more reasons that physical abuse should be allowed, and you desecrate the memory of every innocent woman and child who has been physically abused if you spend even one ounce of brainpower doing so.