Is it ok to hit or beat wives ?

[barnasha]

you are the one that seems to be really *trying* to make it so....

what are your motives?

come join those of us who teach against "wife beating"

[Dan Zebiri]

You are the pathetic minority then, barney-boy!

Islam will NEVER give up its wife-beating injunctions! Because the Quran itself demands it.

Pathetic, becos you are a real fantasy wishing the unrealistic.

My motives ? - To invite you to abandon your false islamic beliefs - and then to embrace the TRUE salvation of Jesus Christ in His Gospel. THATS the way to overcome wife-beating that your quran teaches.

Dan

[Imam ahmad]

The true salvation through Jesus Christ.... What did Jesus teach? Did he ever teach that he was God, and that people should worship him? You have to admit that Jesus never came out and said he was God. Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any reliable evidence of the Trinity doctrine. Even Christian scholars have to admit the the Trinity doctrine was concocted by Church Fathers, and no legit evidence of it can be found in scripture.
Where as we have the Qur'an, where there hasn't been one word edited to it, or from it in the Arabic language for 14 centuries. It's a revelation that is preserved not by how many copies of it is made, but by memorization in such a way that if all of the 'Mushaf' were taken away the Qur'an would still be preserved because literally millions of people have, if not all of it committed to memory a substantial portion. So the Qur'an's authenticity, by this just one of many ways is assured. I remember once I was reciting Surahtul kafiroon before the Maghrib salaat, and I messed up in the recitation, I could hear clapping behind me in the women's section letting me know I had made a mistake. The Qur'an is protected that there can be no mistakes not even in it's recitation.

[Darth Ovious]

The true salvation through Jesus Christ.... What did Jesus teach? Did he ever teach that he was God, and that people should worship him? You have to admit that Jesus never came out and said he was God. Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any reliable evidence of the Trinity doctrine. Even Christian scholars have to admit the the Trinity doctrine was concocted by Church Fathers, and no legit evidence of it can be found in scripture.
Where as we have the Qur'an, where there hasn't been one word edited to it, or from it in the Arabic language for 14 centuries. It's a revelation that is preserved not by how many copies of it is made, but by memorization in such a way that if all of the 'Mushaf' were taken away the Qur'an would still be preserved because literally millions of people have, if not all of it committed to memory a substantial portion. So the Qur'an's authenticity, by this just one of many ways is assured. I remember once I was reciting Surahtul kafiroon before the Maghrib salaat, and I messed up in the recitation, I could hear clapping behind me in the women's section letting me know I had made a mistake. The Qur'an is protected that there can be no mistakes not even in it's recitation.

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.[d] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven."


Doesn't Peter call Jesus the Son of the living God here and then Jesus confirms his statement as true?

[DesertBerean]

And what does that have to do with the subject of daraba?

[Darth Ovious]

And what does that have to do with the subject of daraba?

You're right, it doesn't. I was just answering Imam in accordance to what he said here.

What did Jesus teach? Did he ever teach that he was God, and that people should worship him? You have to admit that Jesus never came out and said he was God.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Where as we have the Qur'an, where there hasn't been one word edited to it, or from it in the Arabic language for 14 centuries. It's a revelation that is preserved not by how many copies of it is made, but by memorization in such a way that if all of the 'Mushaf' were taken away the Qur'an would still be preserved because literally millions of people have, if not all of it committed to memory a substantial portion. So the Qur'an's authenticity, by this just one of many ways is assured. I remember once I was reciting Surahtul kafiroon before the Maghrib salaat, and I messed up in the recitation, I could hear clapping behind me in the women's section letting me know I had made a mistake. The Qur'an is protected that there can be no mistakes not even in it's recitation.

Interesting. This is both similar and different as compared to Judaism.

Similar:
1) Our Torah is identical to G-d's original words given to Moses. Unchanged and unedited for over 21 centuries.
2) If anyone changed a Torah in any way at all (no matter how minute of a change), it is a nonauthoritative copy.
3) If a mistake is said while reading Torah, then the congregation corrects the reader. And the reader must say it correctly.

Difference:
It is forbidden to recite Torah from memory in our services. It must be read directly from the Scrolls.

[Darth Ovious]

Difference:
It is forbidden to recite Torah from memory in our services. It must be read directly from the Scrolls.

Interesting. This isn't the way it was done in ancient Judaism. Rabbi's learned whole scriptures off by heart and some of them could remember the whole Torah. In fact they weren't allowed to teach it unless they remembered the scripture. I take it this is just the modern way of doing things?

[barnasha]

Interesting. This is both similar and different as compared to Judaism.

Similar:
1) Our Torah is identical to G-d's original words given to Moses. Unchanged and unedited for over 21 centuries.

It's not "identifcal to G-'ds original words given to moses" since the Pentateuch comes several different sources (schools/scribes)....

but yes, very authentic & unchanged for a very long time.

2) If anyone changed a Torah in any way at all (no matter how minute of a change), it is a nonauthoritative copy.
3) If a mistake is said while reading Torah, then the congregation corrects the reader. And the reader must say it correctly.

Difference:
It is forbidden to recite Torah from memory in our services. It must be read directly from the Scrolls.

interesting points!

Quran's primary source of transmission and preservation is an oral one, whereas the (written) torah is (obviously) a written one.

[Dan Zebiri]

Ya imam,

Are you soooo sure your quran is error-free, I take it just as a shallow and blind claim, ya imam, because as a muslim, you MUST protect the so-called purity of the quran!

Let us listen to another learned AND HONEST muslim scholar, who went to inlamic seminary and university

The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gernder and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects ...

To sum up, more than one hundred Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structures have been noted...

('Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 1994, pages 48,50)

Is the quran really well-preserved ? We must take a good, HONEST look at this, ya imam!

According to islam's own history and authentic historical sources there is ADMISSION of the perversion of the Quran :
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,

"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).

The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,

"This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."’

What caused the LOSS of the parts of the Quran :

here are SOME causes:

Events Which Led To The Loss Of Some Verses
A Domesticated Animal Eats Qur’anic Verses
In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,

"The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it."

A’isha herself declared that and she knew exactly what she possessed. Also, Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book, "al-Kash-shaf" by the Zamakh-Shari, asserts this fact in page 518 of part 3. He says that the ones who related this incident and said that a domesticated animal ate the verses were reliable persons among them ’Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha herself. This same story has been mentioned also by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who heard it from ’Abdulla who himself heard it from A’isha.

So, imam ahmed, the quran is FAR, VERY fery far, from being a preserved book and truly far from perfect - for anybody's guidance. THAT much is the hard facts on the ground.

Dan.

The true salvation through Jesus Christ.... What did Jesus teach? Did he ever teach that he was God, and that people should worship him? You have to admit that Jesus never came out and said he was God. Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any reliable evidence of the Trinity doctrine. Even Christian scholars have to admit the the Trinity doctrine was concocted by Church Fathers, and no legit evidence of it can be found in scripture.
Where as we have the Qur'an, where there hasn't been one word edited to it, or from it in the Arabic language for 14 centuries. It's a revelation that is preserved not by how many copies of it is made, but by memorization in such a way that if all of the 'Mushaf' were taken away the Qur'an would still be preserved because literally millions of people have, if not all of it committed to memory a substantial portion. So the Qur'an's authenticity, by this just one of many ways is assured. I remember once I was reciting Surahtul kafiroon before the Maghrib salaat, and I messed up in the recitation, I could hear clapping behind me in the women's section letting me know I had made a mistake. The Qur'an is protected that there can be no mistakes not even in it's recitation.

[barnasha]

Is the quran really well-preserved ? We must take a good, HONEST look at this, ya imam!

According to islam's own history and authentic historical sources there is ADMISSION of the perversion of the Quran :
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,

"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).

The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,

this is not an argument against accurate transmission and preservation, it is an admission that some of it was lost - not that some parts were changed or perverted, as you seem to infer.

i would agree that the quran has been perverted, but the source document is unable to be changed since hundreds of thousands of people have had it memorized, the only discrepancies possible would be from those who learned it at different points in time during its constant revelation/editing while Muhammad was alive.

[Imam ahmad]

You believe the Qur'an has been perverted? In what way are you referring to? If we are speaking of it having the same affect it would have being read, understood, and applied if learnt in a language other than Arabic, then you may have a point. Which is why people who aren't familiar with the Arabic of the Qur'an make horrible mistakes in understanding what's there. That Muslims are commanded by Allah to be oversexed War mongers that supposedly follow a fanatic prophet.
The worst thing I've seen from this forum is people who simply because they can pick up the Qur'an, in English, read it and say they understand it ( and in no way am I referring to you brother Barnasha)

[barnasha]

You believe the Qur'an has been perverted? In what way are you referring to? If we are speaking of it having the same affect it would have being read, understood, and applied if learnt in a language other than Arabic, then you may have a point. Which is why people who aren't familiar with the Arabic of the Qur'an make horrible mistakes in understanding what's there. That Muslims are commanded by Allah to be oversexed War mongers that supposedly follow a fanatic prophet.
The worst thing I've seen from this forum is people who simply because they can pick up the Qur'an, in English, read it and say they understand it ( and in no way am I referring to you brother Barnasha)

Yes you are right about language issues, but of course even arabs do pervert the word of God, just as the "shayateen" always use what is holy to play their tricks!

Just look at some of the so called 'salafiyeen' - often young people - who consider themselves experts in islam but have hard hearts, which is the opposite of how the sahaba were: kind, gentle, and noble people

[Anoetos]

Many historians believe that Islam began as a peculiar variety of Arianism.

More properly, Mohammad appropriated large parts of Judaism and heterodox Christianity and constructed a religion from them.

[OneSizeFit]

Many historians believe that Islam began as a peculiar variety of Arianism.

More properly, Mohammad appropriated large parts of Judaism and heterodox Christianity and constructed a religion from them.

Your right. The early pagan opponents to Islam in Arabia believed it was a form of Christianity. This was before Muhammad was glorified to sainthood, and Jesus was still seen as the greatest prophet of the one, true God. My dad who was raised Shia thinks it is a total rip off of Judaism/Christianity.