You're Higher-Up

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Every Sunday night, I go out to the Ben & Jerry's which is close to the Wal-Mart I used to work at. I go in there then and see some friends, one of them a manager I have a deep respect for and I delight in seeing her every time I'm there. I've asked her about a friend of hers who is in my prayer journal and she asked me to pray for her son. He and his wife are trying to have a child. (And anyone else is invited to pray for that as well.) Somehow in the talk, she said she was pleased I was praying because I'm higher-up.

I really feel awkward when someone says something like that to me. I think of the James passage of "Elijah was a man just like us." I think, "If what you said was true, I would not have a hard time paying for class, I would already be married, and my life would be quite different from the way that it really is."

I've said on here before that I don't find prayer the easiest thing in the world. Some nights, it's just difficult. Yet it seems if you're in the ministry capacity, some people just automatically assume you're higher-up and I wish they wouldn't. I'd like them to know that first off, they're making me uncomfortable in that they're having me be put on a level of super-spiritual when I would really say I don't see myself that way at all.

Second, they're lowering themselves. They're putting themselves of being in the position of being an inferior Christian, maybe since they're not in ministry. I think of what C.S. Lewis said about seeing a lady in church and you can have so much pride thinking she can't explain something like the Trinity that you can, but you realize when it comes to personal holiness, you're not worthy to untie her shoes. Yeah. I may know a lot about this stuff and study it deeply, but dang it, I have the same trials in many ways. It's still a struggle to live righteously. I have my own temptations I'm dealing with and my own faults to overcome. I realize that I don't deserve a special place with God. All that I have with him I have by his grace. I'm not saying I don't matter at all to God. I think I do because he loves me. I just disagree that I'm automatically special since I'm in ministry.

So I figured I'd throw this out and see if anyone else heard this line and what they thought about it.

[Teluog]

One of the ladies at VBS said I was awesome. with the kids. That sure boosted my self-esteem, since I didn't think I was any better than okay at handling children's ministry. But that's about it.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Getting compliments is one thing and I think we all need them at times. Being told that you must be on a higher level with God is something else. It unnecessarily puts the person told on a pedestal and has the other person lowering themselves. (If I can't pray like X, why bother?)

[The Remonstrant]

. . . Somehow in the talk, she said she was pleased I was praying because I'm higher-up.

I really feel awkward when someone says something like that to me. I think of the James passage of "Elijah was a man just like us." I think, "If what you said was true, I would not have a hard time paying for class, I would already be married, and my life would be quite different from the way that it really is."

Since I really don't know you or the lady you are referring to, of course I don't know exactly what to make of the 'higher up' comment. She could have (1) genuinely meant what she said in all sincerity; (2) there could have been a bit of flattery involved; (3) it could have been a way to undermine herself and her standing before God (as you seem to have picked up on); &c. Whatever the case might be, it is probably wisest not to make too much of such things, whatever she might have meant by her words to you.

Regarding financial difficulties and struggles with single status, your thinking here, while common in Protestant evangelical circles, really does not cohere at all with adherence to Arminian theology (on your profile, it indicates your soteriology is Arminian at least). It has not really a whole lot to do with God and God's providence. The reason the world is such a hell-hole is because, frankly, there's just too much of this stuff we call 'free will'. I can empathise with your situation in a number of different respects. Blueprint thinking only worsens matters, though. (If you haven't already, you might wish to check out Is God to Blame? [IntervarsityPress, 2003] by open theist Gregory A Boyd).

. . . I realize that I don't deserve a special place with God. All that I have with him I have by his grace. I'm not saying I don't matter at all to God. I think I do because he loves me. I just disagree that I'm automatically special since I'm in ministry.

I appreciate how you're real here. Personally, at this time I have no involvement with church or any congregational activities. I am looking into changing that. It's been some rough going and a lot of doubt. It's hard to say I know what exactly I believe anymore. I never knew that suffering could do all that.

[Crow]

Getting compliments is one thing and I think we all need them at times. Being told that you must be on a higher level with God is something else. It unnecessarily puts the person told on a pedestal and has the other person lowering themselves. (If I can't pray like X, why bother?)

I think that the belief that it's better for someone "higher up" to pray on one's behalf grows from a lack of understanding that each Christian has a relationship with God and each one of us is equally welcome to go to Him with our concerns.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Since I really don't know you or the lady you are referring to, of course I don't know exactly what to make of the 'higher up' comment. She could have (1) genuinely meant what she said in all sincerity; (2) there could have been a bit of flattery involved; (3) it could have been a way to undermine herself and her standing before God (as you seem to have picked up on); &c. Whatever the case might be, it is probably wisest not to make too much of such things, whatever she might have meant by her words to you.

She's the salt of the Earth, one of the sweetest people I know. I'd say it's 1 and 3. I do just examine everything I hear and ask "Why do people say that?" and my concern is that it's putting me on too high a pedestal and ending up with a #3. I think of the ending of James 5. Elijah was a man just like us....

Regarding financial difficulties and struggles with single status, your thinking here, while common in Protestant evangelical circles, really does not cohere at all with adherence to Arminian theology (on your profile, it indicates your soteriology is Arminian at least). It has not really a whole lot to do with God and God's providence. The reason the world is such a hell-hole is because, frankly, there's just too much of this stuff we call 'free will'. I can empathise with your situation in a number of different respects. Blueprint thinking only worsens matters, though. (If you haven't already, you might wish to check out Is God to Blame? [IntervarsityPress, 2003] by open theist Gregory A Boyd).

Oh I'm not arguing in that way. I think the presupposition of the request is "If you ask, God will listen to you." My reply means "Hey. I've got a lot of things God hasn't said yes to me on yet either. I'm just like you." I don't have any reason to believe God is obligated to answer my prayers yes regardless of my theological status.

I appreciate how you're real here. Personally, at this time I have no involvement with church or any congregational activities. I am looking into changing that. It's been some rough going and a lot of doubt. It's hard to say I know what exactly I believe anymore. I never knew that suffering could do all that.

I'm active in my church. I've taught numerous times, I've done a sermon, and I've given my testimony. I'll be giving another sermon next month. (We actually have Saturday night services as well.)

[Thoughtful Monk]

Getting compliments is one thing and I think we all need them at times. Being told that you must be on a higher level with God is something else. It unnecessarily puts the person told on a pedestal and has the other person lowering themselves. (If I can't pray like X, why bother?)

um...maybe.

I think we do have to recognize that some people have a closer relationship to God than others. My relationship with God is closer than an unbelievers. My relationship with God is much more distant than the one brother Lawrence had with God during his life. As my pastor says (quoting someone else whose name escapes me), "God does not have favorities but He does have intimates." I think it is a reality to recognize that some people are on a higher level than God.

Which is different from being discourged about not being at someone else's level. The Bible is full of people having different gifts, ministries, and relationships with God (ex Moses was the friend of God; David a man after God's own heart, etc). So everyone's relationship with God is going to be different.

For me the summary is this: do not be proud or discouraged about your relationship with God when compared with other people. It is ultimately irrelevent in the eyes of God. I think Romans 14:3-4 have some applicablitiy: 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (NIV)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Somehow in the talk, she said she was pleased I was praying because I'm higher-up.

I really feel awkward when someone says something like that to me.

A few things;

1: My favorite reply to such nonsense is to simply say: "IF you knew my sins, you would NEVER say such a foolish thing."

2: You CAN act the Fool for Christ, and not go around like a holy person, but like a really base and stupid one, but God must call you to this course, and it is a total commitment - Almost no one will know who you are, and if you are already in your social setting, you will be known - It involves active deception... Unto death... Christ did this in a certain way - By allowing His Crucifixion, and by NOT doing signs every time someone demanded them...

3: You can become an Orthodox Christian, and everyone will regard you as a rank beginner, which you will be, and your problem will be solved!

4: You can snuff a candle and curse the darkness!

5: You can ______ ____ ________ ______ __ _______ [Fill in the blanks...]



Arsenios

[toodlesdoodles]

Nick, I can think of plenty of reasons why you're so special. I think I can understand what you're saying about being "higher-up." People have told me I'm a "good" Christian before and I felt like I wasn't worthy enough to be called that. I'm not any better than anyone else (and because of myself-esteem issues, I often think the opposite--that everyone is superior over me). I'm sure it can be quite frustrating for you Nick.