Are you a Judas goat ?

[headheart]

Q1: Is it born with this bent for betrayal ?

Seeing as there has been considerable discussion on this matter and the agreed view was that cognizance of morality only kicks sometime after birth -- with what is commonly referred to as the loss of innocence. I favour congnizance of morality,....

The other possible views are; tabula rasa, or what is referred to as the blank slate, as well as Imago Dei, or Logos and the view of St. Augustine of total depravity and the slightly more enlightened view of Jean Cauvin, viz. sensus divinitas. Of course there are the ideas of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism etc. (perhaps a little to broad for this thread, and my mind to unpack. lol)

Michelle:
This "cognizance of morality" or loss of innocence, does it not carry with it the potential for betrayal? C'mon, everyone sins (Romans 3:23). If everyone has a bent toward sin, doesn't it seem likely that everyone has a bent toward betrayal? I could possibly conceive that the answer might be no, because there are certain sins that I don't seem to have a bent towards - I'm not a huge fan of violence, for instance. On the other hand, however, betrayal seems to be self-service on steroids and since most sin seems to me to be rooted in self-service, I don't think it's beyond the pale of possibility that anyone could become a betrayer.

heaheart:
I agree with Romans 3:23 , however your answer relates more to Q2, for this question is about whether or not one is born with a bent for betrayal.

Q2: Is it further schooled for the events of betrayal ?

It does seem that once a person has reached that age of cognizance of morality sinful behaviour is a default setting, though some seem to make more of career of it than others, and others prefer to believe that goodness is the default setting, and others even prefer some form of neutrality. I am only to conclude that though I don't fully believe in the idea that being a man/woman of the world naturally makes one evil, ..........I think....

Michelle...
Incidentally, when I look back over my life before becoming a believer, I'm amazed at some sins I wouldn't think were in my make-up to perpetrate, including some acts of violence, that while I didn't actively participate in, I closed my eyes to, even though I knew that made me complicit.

headheart:
(refer to the next question for my response)

Q3: Is it overpowered to commit such acts of betrayal ?

............ that certain outside influences ie. demonization of sorts, can be brought into play to manipulate situations to bring about events, though this does not rule out the natural psychology of a person.

Michelle:
I agree, but I changed my 'yes' answer to 'maybe' because I'm worried about falling to the other extreme of excusing sinfulness on the grounds that the sinner has been influenced by his environment or by some outside force and therefore doesn't bear the responsibility for his actions.

headheart:
There however does seem to be an 'out-of-control' or 'under-the-influence' aspect to many actions as if powered by the force of emotions or the psychology of a person.
There is a tendency in our Modern world to push down the truth about influences and controls that are not exclusively human. Modern Theology seems to applaude the idea of removing 1st cause, and secondary causes and have God as the one who set the ball rolling and then just sat back and let's history unfold.

Q4: Would an act of conscience (suicide) be justified ?

This is probably the most difficult question to answer, because it largely depends on the exact details of the action committed, and certainly in the case of gross betrayal, sometimes suicide is the only relief (though I would certainly approve of attempts to assist the person to face the action and attempt through treatment to arrest any suicidal thoughts) --- Many sadly slip through the cracks in our societies and end their lives or continue their activities and one has to wonder if such a thing were better than to suffer with the massive wieight of guilt.

Michelle:
No. Sin is never justifiable, so the severity of one sin doesn't make another sin just. If a person is overcome with guilt about a sin, his recourse is the grace and forgiveness offered by our Lord. If that seems repugnant to a man of gross sin, perhaps because his heart has been hardened, suicide is still not acceptable because he robs God, to whom vengeance belongs. It also robs the world of justice, which it needs. Once again, the sinner is self-serving and, well, once again, sinful.

heaheart:
I see you take a very hard line in this matter. I can only say that I have lost close friends (suicide) and one has to always take in to consideration all the circumstances.
Sometimes the psychology of a person (and the contributive influences) do not allow for one to escape to the cross and find relief. Sometimes it is not just a burden, but a load that one carries all alone. The fear of coming out of hiding, and when the pain becomes to much to bear it might be the only escape.

I remember walking along Hout Bay harbour a few years ago with a dear friend who suffered with physical illness (in the brain) and was always on some new fandangled medication. Normal burdens were magnified to heavy loads; so heavy that eventually she took her own life. I grieved so, but knowing how much she ached with love for Jesus, I was comforted in that I knew she would have finally found her peace in the Saviours arms.
There are others like this ( who did not know the Saviour's love), ....

headheart (1)
To be honest, not everyone is touched by redemption.........................

Michelle:
Yeah, it's a sad thing, isn't it?

headheart:
Very sad.
Have you listened to Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith's lecture on Suffering ? The one story where he treated a pregnant woman, who was dying, came to mind.

Q5: Is there redemption for the Judas goat ?

...I believe that betrayal is certainly NOT the end of the matter as if it were somehow something that could not be forgiven, but I think that if forgiveness or at least some form of acceptance of ones tendencies is reached it might be to some degree redemptive .........but if the actions still continue .. redemption might only be achieved via extreme actions, on the part of the person, or the rules that govern us.... etc

Michelle:
Who then can be saved? But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." (Luke 18:26-27)

headheart:
Certainly God's providential kindness is extended even to those who want nothing to do with Him. It is the hardest thing to stand firm and say that this life is all that there is and there are no second chances after we die, but we cannot bend the truth to suit our whims. Though I guess that is what we often do, to make the pain of loss bearable. I know I did, but then eventually had to settle back and agree with God that there are going to be those who might find relief from suffering here, through comfort of family and friends and those believers who are not 'judges', and those other influences (I mentioned earlier) ...but in the afterlife face the one and only judge who judges righteously.

Sincerely,
HH

[Michelle]

heaheart:
I see you take a very hard line in this matter. I can only say that I have lost close friends (suicide) and one has to always take in to consideration all the circumstances.
Sometimes the psychology of a person (and the contributive influences) do not allow for one to escape to the cross and find relief. Sometimes it is not just a burden, but a load that one carries all alone. The fear of coming out of hiding, and when the pain becomes to much to bear it might be the only escape.

I remember walking along Hout Bay harbour a few years ago with a dear friend who suffered with physical illness (in the brain) and was always on some new fandangled medication. Normal burdens were magnified to heavy loads; so heavy that eventually she took her own life. I grieved so, but knowing how much she ached with love for Jesus, I was comforted in that I knew she would have finally found her peace in the Saviours arms.
There are others like this ( who did not know the Saviour's love),

Is it my poor reading, or did you sort of change the subject from "is suicide a justifiable act for a betrayer" to "suicide: some people just can't cope"?

I, too, have lost friends to suicide and know how deeply it hurts. My thoughts in my post before were not in response to those so overwhelmed by mental or physical anguish that in that diminished capacity, suicide seemed like the only, and the right, thing to do. I would never presume to judge the heart, nor soul, of those people. Only God knows what is on their hearts and He is their judge. He if just and merciful and I trust Him completely.

I was talking about how unjust it is for someone who commits such heinous sins to take the easy way out.

Thanks,
MMu

[headheart]

I was talking about how unjust it is for someone who commits such heinous sins to take the easy way out.

Like I said, 'I see you take a very hard line in this matter.'

Sincerely,
HH

[Michelle]

Like I said, 'I see you take a very hard line in this matter.'

Sincerely,
HH

Well, yeah.