"Helping" The Poor

[Narnian]

We had this discussion last night at our bible study and came to no conculsions. I'm looking for some answers because recently I was confronted with this question from an unbeliever whose kindheartedness brought her more problems. These are real life scenarios that were brought up last night;

1. An elderly woman has a daughter with a mental illness who is verbally aggressive and has also a history of drunken and aggressive behaviour. Due to mismanagement etc, this daughter ends up on the streets with no where to live, and she also has 2 children. The elderly lady takes her daughter and grandchildren in, but for the next 6 months she has to live terrified of her frequent threats and bad behaviour.

2. Travelling through the rice paddies of India, two westerners stop to say hello to children who live on the farms. They are well nourished and healthy looking, live on farm food but have no actual cash. They as for some rupees. If they give the money, the children would probably make it a daily ritual to stop westerners for photos and more rupees, and spend less time learning to farm.

3. A lovely old lady meets a street kid and takes him into her house, feeds him, gives him a bed and speaks to him about Jesus. The next morning, she wakes up to find he has left with all her money and her car.

4. A kind hearted man passes some aboriginals sitting by the road. He stops to say hello, and they ask for money. Even though he knows these people are given enough weekly handouts by the government, he gives them some, yet they baulk at how little he was willing to give.

Helping these people above only makes things worse, encourages laziness, bad behaviour and arrogance. So, over to you people - what DO we do, and who actually are the poor?

[Narnian]

Another instance of how "helping" can cause more problems is the allowing of asylum seekers into western countries. Aren't we depleting their countries of their most fit and healthy young men - ie only those who could make such voyages in boats etc are the very ones who could actually help their countries? But we are draining these countries and making them even more unstable.

[Pilgrim]

Especially in number two your assumptions are simply that: assumptions. You assume they'll stop farming. Do you have anything other than your own vague assumption that this will happen?

[gharfish]

We had this discussion last night at our bible study and came to no conculsions. I'm looking for some answers because recently I was confronted with this question from an unbeliever whose kindheartedness brought her more problems. These are real life scenarios that were brought up last night;

1. An elderly woman has a daughter with a mental illness who is verbally aggressive and has also a history of drunken and aggressive behaviour. Due to mismanagement etc, this daughter ends up on the streets with no where to live, and she also has 2 children. The elderly lady takes her daughter and grandchildren in, but for the next 6 months she has to live terrified of her frequent threats and bad behaviour.

2. Travelling through the rice paddies of India, two westerners stop to say hello to children who live on the farms. They are well nourished and healthy looking, live on farm food but have no actual cash. They as for some rupees. If they give the money, the children would probably make it a daily ritual to stop westerners for photos and more rupees, and spend less time learning to farm.

3. A lovely old lady meets a street kid and takes him into her house, feeds him, gives him a bed and speaks to him about Jesus. The next morning, she wakes up to find he has left with all her money and her car.

4. A kind hearted man passes some aboriginals sitting by the road. He stops to say hello, and they ask for money. Even though he knows these people are given enough weekly handouts by the government, he gives them some, yet they baulk at how little he was willing to give.

Helping these people above only makes things worse, encourages laziness, bad behaviour and arrogance. So, over to you people - what DO we do, and who actually are the poor?

You are wanting what do we do? [about] solutions to *these four problems* to serve as examples of answers .....that can be applied; right Narnian ?

Poverty can be an absolute measure of lack. It can also be a relative one too, the defining severity of the condition relying on the state of the others who they (the poor) are being compared to. (Naturally).

This is 'in' Christianity 201, so you do want for us Jesus' counsel; right Narnian? I see that you still call yourself Christian(other).


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[odis]

the united states has the richest poor in the world. when i was in italy, my mom covered my eyes and picked me up and ran with me. she did not want me to see the half-dressed starving poor that were forced to beg for food. i define poor as those who do whatever they can to eat because they dont have the money to buy themselves a meal.

i believe it was the english who refused to give away money to the poor. instead they paid the poor to make stone walls in the middle of huge fields that did not require a wall. you may ask why:
1 it kept them from being lazy, they were more willing to find a job because they weren't getting lazy.
2 it kept them working. as long as they were kept busy they would not steal.
3 it kept them happy. as long as they were working for money, they had something to work for. they were given wages which they could use to buy food. it wasn't a handout per se so they wouldn't be embarrassed, but it was easy money. low wages, but it was better than begging.

if nothing else: give a man to fish and he will eat for a day but teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

[Kelp]

Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. For some have already strayed after Satan. If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows.

Yes, sometimes you have to turn someone away. It's a terrible reality.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what else to say, sorry. It's something that needs to be approached with careful prayer and discernment.

[Kelp]

the united states has the richest poor in the world. when i was in italy, my mom covered my eyes and picked me up and ran with me. she did not want me to see the half-dressed starving poor that were forced to beg for food. i define poor as those who do whatever they can to eat because they dont have the money to buy themselves a meal.

i believe it was the english who refused to give away money to the poor. instead they paid the poor to make stone walls in the middle of huge fields that did not require a wall. you may ask why:
1 it kept them from being lazy, they were more willing to find a job because they weren't getting lazy.
2 it kept them working. as long as they were kept busy they would not steal.
3 it kept them happy. as long as they were working for money, they had something to work for. they were given wages which they could use to buy food. it wasn't a handout per se so they wouldn't be embarrassed, but it was easy money. low wages, but it was better than begging.

if nothing else: give a man to fish and he will eat for a day but teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

I think that's a great idea; keeping in mind that some people just really don't seem to want help.

[odis]

if nothing else: give a man to fish and he will eat for a day but teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

ahem.... give a fish to a man and he will eat for a day...........

[Narnian]

Thanks I like the one about the wall, and I'm sure there is meaningful work for these people.

But what do we say or do in these scenarios? ie how would YOU respond to, for example, to YOUR daughter knocking on your door with her children for accomodation, yet you know you will be abused by her?

This is 'in' Christianity 201, so you do want for us Jesus' counsel; right Narnian? I see that you still call yourself Christian(other).

Please refrain from prejudiced remarks. I was told to put "other" on my avatar because I am a fan of Open Theism, but I personally do not view myself as an "other".

[Kelp]

No, you were told to put other in because of your heretical view of God. One of the owners of this site is Open Theist. We don't make people change their designation over that.

[Narnian]

No, you were told to put other in because of your heretical view of God. One of the owners of this site is Open Theist. We don't make people change their designation over that.

I uphold the Nicene Creed, I am a trinitarian and an Open Theist. Now, if you think I'm wrong please point out my error in a section of this forum where it is most suited - I'm not sure where. Please start a thread there and invite me and we will discuss

Otherwise let's get back to discussing "the poor".

[RBerman]

Yes, sometimes you have to turn someone away. It's a terrible reality.

FWIW, it's arguable whether the passage you cited (1 Timothy 5:9-15) is about charity. It may be about the qualifications for deaconess. Surely Paul wasn't teaching that being childless meant one was disqualified as a recipient of church mercy! (v10)

[Kelp]

FWIW, it's arguable whether the passage you cited (1 Timothy 5:9-15) is about charity. It may be about the qualifications for deaconess. Surely Paul wasn't teaching that being childless meant one was disqualified as a recipient of church mercy! (v10)

True, it could have been a cultural thing though. Paul is giving some guidelines about which women who need charity and who don't.

[gharfish]

I uphold the Nicene Creed, I am a trinitarian and an Open Theist. Now, if you think I'm wrong please point out my error in a section of this forum where it is most suited - I'm not sure where. Please start a thread there and invite me and we will discuss

Otherwise let's get back to discussing "the poor".

You go. You have something to respond to.

No prejudice from me. Did I say that you have dismissed the God of the O.T.; He's for you someone other than YHWH/Jehovah ? *Instead, I asked you that if by putting your thread OP in Christianity 201 that you were indeed seeking Jesus' counsel *along with our own personal opinions...in trying to answer/solve the four specific real problems that you brought up. If we aren't going to actually consult and apply His teachings to your OP dilemmas, then we'll just be offering our own solutions. Is that cool ? We could, but then that'd mean there was no reason to put it Christianity 201 in particular. Why, the thread's topic could fit as well in Comparative Religions if other sages' counsel were what we'd use as guiding sources!

The four situations are quite helpful to keep us on track. I applaud that; I really do. Because to focus on them first and move on out later will keep us safer from making the poorer and poorest people of the world become here, in this discussion, a problem and an abstraction we'd otherwise likely bat around as too general and murky a subject.




~ps: If you yourself have been poor (still are?), and/or care for other people in your life who are, then you are in a unique position to know and help. The thread's title is Helping The Poor (although Helping is in quotes).


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[Kelp]

I uphold the Nicene Creed, I am a trinitarian and an Open Theist. Now, if you think I'm wrong please point out my error in a section of this forum where it is most suited - I'm not sure where. Please start a thread there and invite me and we will discuss

Otherwise let's get back to discussing "the poor".

You've been over this with Sparko and others. You deny that the God of the OT is the same as the Father of Jesus Christ and you also think the Virgin birth is either an edifying myth or else Jesus is Zoroaster.

So no, you do not accept the Creed.