Is it really evil?

[Chappie]

Concerning the purported evil done by the Father to Christ: Is it really evil, or just a sophistic evaluation of scripture…

Consider…
A Marine platoon leader is trapped by the enemy with his men: The only way that they can escape complete annihilation is by blowing a bridge that the enemy needs to enable them to successfully attack and destroy his men. The captain ponders his situation and realizes that for success he must send one of his men out to blow this bridge or all of his soldiers will be lost. The Captain realizes that the mission will result in certain death to the one sent to blow the bridge. He explains the situation to his men, letting them know that if the bridge is not blown, all will die, but to blow the bridge only one will die…

The 1st Sergeant says, “I will go”. Captain says, “You know that this will end in y9our death.” The Sergeant determines that his love for the men with whom he has served with is greater than his fear of death. I will go said the Sergeant. The Captain says, “Get your gear Sarge, you leave in 10 minutes.

Is this an evil act on the Captains part? Is he a murderer? Is the Captain doing an evil thing?
What’s the difference between what happens here and what happened between God the Father and Christ?

[RonC]

Concerning the purported evil done by the Father to Christ: Is it really evil, or just a sophistic evaluation of scripture…

Consider…
A Marine platoon leader is trapped by the enemy with his men: The only way that they can escape complete annihilation is by blowing a bridge that the enemy needs to enable them to successfully attack and destroy his men. The captain ponders his situation and realizes that for success he must send one of his men out to blow this bridge or all of his soldiers will be lost. The Captain realizes that the mission will result in certain death to the one sent to blow the bridge. He explains the situation to his men, letting them know that if the bridge is not blown, all will die, but to blow the bridge only one will die…

The 1st Sergeant says, “I will go”. Captain says, “You know that this will end in y9our death.” The Sergeant determines that his love for the men with whom he has served with is greater than his fear of death. I will go said the Sergeant. The Captain says, “Get your gear Sarge, you leave in 10 minutes.

Is this an evil act on the Captains part? Is he a murderer? Is the Captain doing an evil thing?
What’s the difference between what happens here and what happened between God the Father and Christ?

Genesis 1:31 -- The Creator makes a Divine Assessment of Creation -- "All is very good"

Genesis 3 -- Man's understanding changes (his eyes are opened) and he sees "good and evil"... He no longer sees in accordance with God...

Matthew 4:17 -- The first teaching of Jesus' public ministry: metanoeo. It means "Change your understanding... change your mind..."

Man judges ra' as a bad thing (20th Century English meaning of the term "evil")... Jesus teaches that we best not judge unless we "judge righteous judgment"... which means in line with Divine Truth... and the Creator's Divine Assessment in Genesis 1:31 stand as one aspect of Divine Truth... Your statement in another thread was right on: "Evil must be good". Just as the opposite of God is nothing, the opposite of good is also nothing...

Broad brushstrokes, I know...

[rhutchin]

Concerning the purported evil done by the Father to Christ: Is it really evil, or just a sophistic evaluation of scripture…

Consider…
A Marine platoon leader is trapped by the enemy with his men: The only way that they can escape complete annihilation is by blowing a bridge that the enemy needs to enable them to successfully attack and destroy his men. The captain ponders his situation and realizes that for success he must send one of his men out to blow this bridge or all of his soldiers will be lost. The Captain realizes that the mission will result in certain death to the one sent to blow the bridge. He explains the situation to his men, letting them know that if the bridge is not blown, all will die, but to blow the bridge only one will die…

The 1st Sergeant says, “I will go”. Captain says, “You know that this will end in y9our death.” The Sergeant determines that his love for the men with whom he has served with is greater than his fear of death. I will go said the Sergeant. The Captain says, “Get your gear Sarge, you leave in 10 minutes.

Is this an evil act on the Captains part? Is he a murderer? Is the Captain doing an evil thing?
What’s the difference between what happens here and what happened between God the Father and Christ?

If we are going to describe an action as evil, then we first need to define what we mean when we call something evil. Those who ascribe the death of Christ as an evil action by God must define what they mean by evil.

Within the Biblical context, any behavior that is contrary to that which God would have us to do (as expressed in His commandments (or His instructions as RonC would have it)) can be described as evil.

As Christ gave up His life voluntarily (saying I lay down my life for the sheep, and I lay down my life, that I might take it again.) what can be said to be evil in His behavior. We are also told by John: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Can a person's expression of love toward his friends be described as evil? I don't think so, but let those who think otherwise make their argument.

[RonC]

If we are going to describe an action as evil, then we first need to define what we mean when we call something evil. Those who ascribe the death of Christ as an evil action by God must define what they mean by evil.

Within the Biblical context, any behavior that is contrary to that which God would have us to do (as expressed in His commandments (or His instructions as RonC would have it)) can be described as evil.

As Christ gave up His life voluntarily (saying I lay down my life for the sheep, and I lay down my life, that I might take it again.) what can be said to be evil in His behavior. We are also told by John: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Can a person's expression of love toward his friends be described as evil? I don't think so, but let those who think otherwise make their argument.

I fully agree with rhutchin that we first must define evil. I disagree that “any behavior that is contrary to that which God would have us to do (as expressed in His commandments (or His instructions as RonC would have it)) can be described as evil.” I believe that these action need to addressed as “sinful” because I think that we run into an exegetical issue with regard to Isaiah 45:7 wherein God states that he creates evil. I still think that Chappies assertion that “evil must be good” is one that merits serious consideration… if God assesses all he creates as “very good” must not “evil” (as the term is used biblically and which God asserts he creates) in and of itself be “very good”?

The problem with the discussion seems to be that the Hebrew term ra’ does not have the same connotations as the medieval and now modern religious English term “evil”…

[Chappie]

I fully agree with Rhutchin that we first must define evil. I disagree that “any behavior that is contrary to that which God would have us to do (as expressed in His commandments (or His instructions as RonC would have it)) can be described as evil.” I believe that these action need to addressed as “sinful” because I think that we run into an exegetical issue with regard to Isaiah 45:7 wherein God states that he creates evil.

I still think that Chappies assertion that “evil must be good” is one that merits serious consideration… if God assesses all he creates as “very good” must not “evil” (as the term is used biblically and which God asserts he creates) in and of itself be “very good”?

Before this statement gets legs and a mind of its own, a pause to clarify: This “evil must be good” statement as is attributed to me is indeed my handwriting, but taken out of the context in which it was spoken, it says something that I never intended. If determinism is true, then evil must be good has to be true if any validity can be placed on the assertion that God is good. Evil is not good. They are absolutely opposing concepts. The purposes in which each concept is used, through context can lead us into areas of gray, but the opposing nature of each concept stands unchanged.

All of this gibberish about knowing and not knowing what is good and what is evil is conjured up using mans own recipe. Definitely reeks of false teachers if you ask me. (Nobody did) God says that as children of Adam and Eve, we know the difference between the two. And daily we pay a heavy price for that knowledge.

Genesis 3:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Perhaps it can be said that due to the moral decay of man over the generations, this knowledge has become clouded and gray, but deep within our consciousnesses, where the rubber meets the road, we all know the difference, and we know that that difference is glaringly pronounced. And if one cannot discern it from a word or a passage of scripture, each concept is glaringly illuminated by a preponderance of scripture.

Both evil and good first identify themselves within our intentions, and are brought to fruition by our actions.

The problem with the discussion seems to be that the Hebrew term ra’ does not have the same connotations as the medieval and now modern religious English term “evil”…

The Hebrew term “ra” is but the first brush stroke on the canvas that paints a picture of the concept of evil. The term does not solve the problem of identifying what evil is, but the picture painted preponderantly throughout the pages of scripture does. The term can either help or hinder you in your understanding. The choice is yours…

[RonC]

First, I did not intend to take your statement out of context. Please note that I did not attack what you said, rather I felt it was a perception that was worth exploring. I still think it is... regardless of context...

Nonetheless, we still have to reconcile the Creator's Divine Assessment of all of creation as "very good" -- which proclaims the single nature of creation (very good) -- with the concept that the Creator also asserts that creation includes aspects to which the adjectives towb and ra' are appropriate for Him to apply...

It seems to me that once "their eyes are opened" Adam and Eve loose faith in the Creator's assessment of creation.

[Chappie]

First, I did not intend to take your statement out of context. Please note that I did not attack what you said, rather I felt it was a perception that was worth exploring. I still think it is... regardless of context...

Mr. RonC, I found nothing dishonorable in the way that you quoted me. Your intentions never appeared untoward, and you brought up some very good points in response...

Nonetheless, we still have to reconcile the Creator's Divine Assessment of all of creation as "very good" -- which proclaims the single nature of creation (very good) -- with the concept that the Creator also asserts that creation includes aspects to which the adjectives towb and ra' are appropriate for Him to apply...

It seems to me that once "their eyes are opened" Adam and Eve lose faith in the Creator's assessment of creation.

I believe that creation was "very good' as scripture proclaims it to be. And although God created evil as stated in scripture, I do not believe that it was ever intended to be introduced into God's creation. This is the reason that obedience was such a high priority in God's relationship with man.

Satan, an angel already caught up in rebellion first tempted A & E. Satan was a spirit being, he could not even communicate with A & E without first entering the fleshly body of a creature indigenous to this fleshly world.

Creation was "very good", and without disobedience it would have remained that way. Did God know that Satan was coming, yes he did. Why did he not stop him? Apparently he was acting within the parameters of the freedom that God had allowed him. So rather than saying "oops, I gave him too much liberty:" God in eternity past took steps to undo what Satan did...

[rhutchin]

I fully agree with rhutchin that we first must define evil. I disagree that “any behavior that is contrary to that which God would have us to do (as expressed in His commandments (or His instructions as RonC would have it)) can be described as evil.” I believe that these action need to addressed as “sinful” because I think that we run into an exegetical issue with regard to Isaiah 45:7 wherein God states that he creates evil.

Regardless of the exegetical issue, how does one define evil other than in the context of disobedience to God? What behavior or action could one describe as evil which is not also somehow related to disobedience to God? If we describe disobedience as sinful, how does that avoid it also being evil?

Given the situation in Isaiah (I don't recall any other similar verse), the exegetical issue requires that we explain how God creates evil rather than having to devise a definition for evil that is different than that which we would apply to every other use of the word in the Bible.

However, the term, evil, in Isaiah seems to be used as a noun and distinct from other references to evil where it is an adjective. Regardless, the definition of evil is the issue here and not the exegesis of Isaiah.

I still think that Chappies assertion that “evil must be good” is one that merits serious consideration… if God assesses all he creates as “very good” must not “evil” (as the term is used biblically and which God asserts he creates) in and of itself be “very good”?

If we take evil to be the opposite of good, then we might say that God cannot create good without also defining evil even if it has yet to manifest itself amongst that which is declared to be very good. God's very good creation maintained that status until Adam/Eve sinned at which point it God could no longer declare His creation to be very good but would now have to declare it to be evil. God's creation can be described as either evil or good but not both evil and good at the same time.

The problem with the discussion seems to be that the Hebrew term ra’ does not have the same connotations as the medieval and now modern religious English term “evil”…

I can see the modern non-sectarian sense of evil being defined without reference to obedience to God but does the modern religious sense of evil also avoid this connection? If it can, I guess we have a definition of evil.

[RonC]

Mr. RonC, I found nothing dishonorable in the way that you quoted me. Your intentions never appeared untoward, and you brought up some very good points in response...



I believe that creation was "very good' as scripture proclaims it to be. And although God created evil as stated in scripture, I do not believe that it was ever intended to be introduced into God's creation. This is the reason that obedience was such a high priority in God's relationship with man.

We are all entitled to our beliefs… whatever brings us closer to an understanding of the path to salvation. But this assertion you make is not founded in the narratives of the Creation and the Fall. There is no other Divine Assessment contradicting God’s original assessment.

Satan, an angel already caught up in rebellion first tempted A & E. Satan was a spirit being, he could not even communicate with A & E without first entering the fleshly body of a creature indigenous to this fleshly world.

Again, conjecture or hypothesis…

Creation was "very good", and without disobedience it would have remained that way. Did God know that Satan was coming, yes he did. Why did he not stop him? Apparently he was acting within the parameters of the freedom that God had allowed him. So rather than saying "oops, I gave him too much liberty:" God in eternity past took steps to undo what Satan did...

It is my contention that there is a different way to view the stories of the Creation and The Fall… that “disobedience may not have been the issue with regard to “The Fall of Man”. I have addressed this in the thread called “Theology and Emotion”. It addresses the concept of “good” and “evil” as first introduced Biblically in the stories of The Creation and The Fall as well as the connotations of the terms in the original Hebrew terms. I also address the Hebrew term tsavah which is translated as “command”. To address these here might redundant as well as off topic.

**

Regardless of the exegetical issue, how does one define evil other than in the context of disobedience to God? What behavior or action could one describe as evil which is not also somehow related to disobedience to God? If we describe disobedience as sinful, how does that avoid it also being evil?

In Genesis 3 it is clear that God sees and understands “evil” and that man has not seen it (prior to the eating of the fruit) and has no idea how to deal with it… he becomes ashamed and fearful… man has , as God says “become as one of us” in that man now sees good and evil Man has not become “one of us”, but rather “as one of us”. Man sees “good and evil” but he cannot deal with it or fully comprehend it…

Given the situation in Isaiah (I don't recall any other similar verse), the exegetical issue requires that we explain how God creates evil rather than having to devise a definition for evil that is different than that which we would apply to every other use of the word in the Bible. However, the term, evil, in Isaiah seems to be used as a noun and distinct from other references to evil where it is an adjective. Regardless, the definition of evil is the issue here and not the exegesis of Isaiah.

Agreed… and since “evil” (as the concept is used in much of modern western Christianity) was not created in Genesis 1 or 2 – the foundational stories of the creation – and since the Creator acknowledges that He creates “evil – we need to clear and consise.

If we take evil to be the opposite of good, then we might say that God cannot create good without also defining evil even if it has yet to manifest itself amongst that which is declared to be very good. God's very good creation maintained that status until Adam/Eve sinned at which point it God could no longer declare His creation to be very good but would now have to declare it to be evil.

This concept grants man the power to alter the essence of God’s creation… I am not sure that this is Biblically supportable…

I suggest that in an earthly or creation sense evil is the opposite of good, but in the metaphysical sense, from the standpoint of the Creator, all is very good including that which men see as bad or evil

God's creation can be described as either evil or good but not both evil and good at the same time.

Why not?... Doesn’t that depend on one’s understanding of evil – and the meaning of the term itself?

There is death and destruction throughout creation – Tsunamis, jackals hunting down innocent your calves… I suggest that it is man’s reactions that define our meaning of the term “evil”. Some people see hunters as evil. Some might see a jackal rip into an innocent calf and consider that evil… a pet dog destroying someone’s pet cat… or biting the mailman… some people will refer to the dog as “evil”.

I can see the modern non-sectarian sense of evil being defined without reference to obedience to God but does the modern religious sense of evil also avoid this connection? If it can, I guess we have a definition of evil.

If disobedience is not the issue and the important issue is whether we stay on the path God illuminates for us (directs us to) then we can understand sin (straying from the path) very clearly and simply… to not follow God’s guidance is to sin (stray from the path).

This understanding now allows us to address the concept of evil separate from the concept of Divine Guidance – and the belief in the command/disobedience paradigm.

In Old English the term “evil (the etymology of the term indicates) actually meant “uppity” (an evil chap) or bad (as in an evil smell or an evil taste) – see John Ayto’s work in the area of etymology. This is much closer to the connotation of the Hebrew term ]i]ra’[/i]… a fruit that is not ready to eat or has gone bad is ra’ as opposed to one that is ripe (towb)… something that is unpleasant or disagreeable is ra’, that which is pleasant is towb. However when the Divine assesses something as “very good” is has a greater meaning than when a farmer says the milk has gone bad and it is a serious exegetical position to take that the Divine Assessment upon completion of His work is that all is “very good” and then somehow at some point it suddenly becomes “evil”…

[Chappie]

Concerning the purported evil done by the Father to Christ: Is it really evil, or just a sophistic evaluation of scripture…

Consider…
A Marine platoon leader is trapped by the enemy with his men: The only way that they can escape complete annihilation is by blowing a bridge that the enemy needs to enable them to successfully attack and destroy his men. The captain ponders his situation and realizes that for success he must send one of his men out to blow this bridge or all of his soldiers will be lost. The Captain realizes that the mission will result in certain death to the one sent to blow the bridge. He explains the situation to his men, letting them know that if the bridge is not blown, all will die, but to blow the bridge only one will die…

The 1st Sergeant says, “I will go”. Captain says, “You know that this will end in y9our death.” The Sergeant determines that his love for the men with whom he has served with is greater than his fear of death. I will go said the Sergeant. The Captain says, “Get your gear Sarge, you leave in 10 minutes.

Is this an evil act on the Captains part? Is he a murderer? Is the Captain doing an evil thing?
What’s the difference between what happens here and what happened between God the Father and Christ?

Will someone answer my original question? How is the narrative above different in moral content than the determinate council of God that resulted in Christ’s death...

Both evil.
Both good.
One good, one evil.

[Vivian]

Hi Chappie!

Why would we think that laying down one's life for his brother is evil? Why would we think walking a path that lead's to our own suffering would be evil?

I am not sure why one would think either scenario is evil?

Jesus said there is no greater love, and love is good.

Another telling incident which I think concurs with the idea of judging with righteous judgment is when Peter rebukes Jesus after his revealing of his death in Matthew 16:


21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Here Jesus calls trying to interfere with his walking of this path evil.

So trying to save Jesus from suffering is evil! Now that is something to think about. Sometimes our attempts to 'save' others from suffering that would benefit all of humanity can also be called evil.


Shalom.

Viv

[RonC]

Will someone answer my original question? How is the narrative above different in moral content than the determinate council of God that resulted in Christ’s death...

Both evil.
Both good.
One good, one evil.

From the perspective of man the created being death is bad (evil). From the Divine perspective of the Creator, physical death is not bad (evil). Jesus tells us not to be concerned about physical death… death of the body… But from our human perspective, the death of a friend or a loved one is bad.

This is why I keep harping on “seeing rightly”… That which creation sees as evil is, from the Creator’s perspective (based on Genesis) an aspect of the Creator’s creation which the Creator assesses to be “very good”.

[rhutchin]

Chappie
Concerning the purported evil done by the Father to Christ: Is it really evil, or just a sophistic evaluation of scripture…

Consider…
A Marine platoon leader is trapped by the enemy with his men: The only way that they can escape complete annihilation is by blowing a bridge that the enemy needs to enable them to successfully attack and destroy his men. The captain ponders his situation and realizes that for success he must send one of his men out to blow this bridge or all of his soldiers will be lost. The Captain realizes that the mission will result in certain death to the one sent to blow the bridge. He explains the situation to his men, letting them know that if the bridge is not blown, all will die, but to blow the bridge only one will die…

The 1st Sergeant says, “I will go”. Captain says, “You know that this will end in y9our death.” The Sergeant determines that his love for the men with whom he has served with is greater than his fear of death. I will go said the Sergeant. The Captain says, “Get your gear Sarge, you leave in 10 minutes.

Is this an evil act on the Captains part? Is he a murderer? Is the Captain doing an evil thing?
What’s the difference between what happens here and what happened between God the Father and Christ?

Will someone answer my original question? How is the narrative above different in moral content than the determinate council of God that resulted in Christ’s death...

Both evil.
Both good.
One good, one evil.

I see no basis to call either action evil. Consequently, both are good.

[Chappie]

I see no basis to call either action evil. Consequently, both are good.

Then why do determinists use this as evidence that God perpertates evil as well as good...

[Chappie]

Was what Satan did in the garden good or evil?
Why?