The problem of evidence for a Biblical Flood

[shunyadragon]

This thread is inspired by a bizzaro unbelievable claim in a thread in Applied Protology 201 The evidence for Noah's Flood is overwhelming!

I was asked by hansgeorg to post there, but I am not allowed to so his post inspired this thread.

Bizzaro posts like this one beg for a legitimate scientific explanation.

Limestone can be from shrimps getting caught in acid during flood.

We will begin with the limestone problem. In brief, fossil sea animals and plants are indeed found in limestones, but the matrix of limestone (90%+ by volume) is chemical precipitate in sea water (in rare instances fresh water) and huge deposits of the carbonate remains of microscopic sea animals and corals. The massive Diatomacious earth and Chalk Deposits are also deposits of the skeletal remains of very small and animals and microrganism that take millions of years to form. These processes can be observed and measured on a time scale of formation in active coral deposits like the Great Barrier reefs, Pacific coral islands around ancient volcanoes, and limestone platforms like around the Bermuda islands.

More to follow.

[TheLurch]

Also, acid dissolves limestone. So you can't form limestone because of some hypothetical acid catastrophe.

Chemistry: it's kinda important.

[Wally]

It's almost like these guys think the earth is the center of the universe.

[shunyadragon]

It is bit to an exaggeration that limestones are thousands of feet thick, but the classic limestone the Greenbrier is four hundred feet thick and covers hundreds of square mile in West Virginia, Kentucky, Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. I am familiar with the formation from working on the Soil and Geologic Survey of West Virginia. Most of it is a massive gray pure limestone, but contains thin seams of limey shales. It form in a shallow sea of a huge basin.

[Bret]

Other proof is the oil fields. All the dinosaurs and other animals were brought together by the rising waters and undercurrents during the flood. Oil fields are these gathering spots where mass graves where the decaying bodies of all these large animals assembled.

Leaving the ad hoc nature of this claim aside for a moment, oil isn't derived from large animals. The Sinclair Oil logo is cute and all, but it's not science.

edit - Dagnabbit! Rogue beat me to it.

[shunyadragon]

Leaving the ad hoc nature of this claim aside for a moment, oil isn't derived from large animals. The Sinclair Oil logo is cute and all, but it's not science.

edit - Dagnabbit! Rogue beat me to it.

The presence of animals, such as dinosaurs, are indicated by deposits of bones. Most strata containing dinosaur bones are terrestrial strata, eolian (windblown), alluvial, and lake deposits, and no oil associated with these deposits. Though Uranium deposits are associated with Dinosaur bones in these strata due to chemical replacement of Phosphates in bones over million of years. Marine dinosaurs are found in marine sediment deposits, but not enough to explain the vast petroleum deposits. The requirement for the formation of these vast deposits is the accumulation of plant and microbial animals over millions of years. The processes that form petroleum and natural gas can be observed today in recent sediment deposits. What can be easily calculated based on objective observations of current formations is that it requires millions of years to form these vast known deposits.



Next! What does Answers in Genesis say and why it is bogus goofus.

[hansgeorg]

The processes that form petroleum and natural gas can be observed today in recent sediment deposits. What can be easily calculated based on objective observations of current formations is that it requires millions of years to form these vast known deposits.

Actually, on the other thread I was challenged by a Christian, of sorts (rogue, I seem to recall), who claimed the coccoliths would need to form a stratum of 0.8m thickness around the Earth to account for the limestone.

By assuming that Earth and Sea were about equal in parts of surface previous to Flood, that means 1.6 m marine thickness - which means that they were quite able to be spread down through the waters and that in sufficiently low density to receive the needed sunlight.

[shunyadragon]

Actually, on the other thread I was challenged by a Christian, of sorts (rogue, I seem to recall), who claimed the coccoliths [coccolithophore] would need to form a stratum of 0.8m thickness around the Earth to account for the limestone.

He is probably correct, the following describes chalk formation and where it occurs:

Source: http://sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/A-Fizzy-Rock/Science-Ideas-and-Concepts/Limestone-origins

Chalk is a special form of limestone mainly formed in deeper water from the shell remains of microscopic marine plants and animals such as coccolithophores and foraminifera. Unless deeply buried, most chalks are relatively soft rock with a high calcium carbonate content. The famous White Cliffs of Dover bordering the English Channel consist of chalk deposits.

© Copyright Original Source

Regardless of how limestones form the time issue is immense, and we can observe different kinds of limestone forming today and measure the amount of time required. Considering the vast extent and thickness of different layers of limestone we are talking hundreds of millions of years.

Yes limestones occur in cyclic deposition with sandstones and shales, but it remains that limestones themselves are often hundreds of feet thick, and separated by many feet of sandstone and shale.

For example the Oolitic limestone:

Source: http://csmres.jmu.edu/geollab/Fichter/SedRx/Rocks/oospar1.html

Formation & Environments
Oolites form today in warm, supersaturated, shallow, highly aggitated marine water. They are commonly associated with zones of high tidal activity in a Subtidal Or Lower Intertidal Environment.
The mechanism of formation is to begin with a seed of some sort, perhaps a shell fragment. The strong currents wash this seed around on the bottom where it accumulates a layer of chemically precipitated calcite from the supersaturated water. Only this process is going on with uncounted trillions of oolites. The oolites are commonly found in large dunes (megaripples); if you could be there you could scoop up the oolites in your arms and hands.
The concentric layers is formed as the oolites are alternately exposed to pick up a concentric layer, and then buried to set the layer. The next exposure then adds another layer.

© Copyright Original Source

By assuming that Earth and Sea were about equal in parts of surface previous to Flood, that means 1.6 m marine thickness - which means that they were quite able to be spread down through the waters and that in sufficiently low density to receive the needed sunlight.

No, do the math, the vast energy petroleum resources can only be explained by millions of years of plant and micro organism deposits. Needed sunlight is not the issue, it is the time, light, nutrients, and volume of organic material required to produce the petroleum and natural gas.

[oxmixmudd]

He is probably correct, the following describes chalk formation and where it occurs:

Source: http://sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/A-Fizzy-Rock/Science-Ideas-and-Concepts/Limestone-origins

Chalk is a special form of limestone mainly formed in deeper water from the shell remains of microscopic marine plants and animals such as coccolithophores and foraminifera. Unless deeply buried, most chalks are relatively soft rock with a high calcium carbonate content. The famous White Cliffs of Dover bordering the English Channel consist of chalk deposits.

© Copyright Original Source

Regardless of how limestones form the time issue is immense, and we can observe different kinds of limestone forming today and measure the amount of time required. Considering the vast extent and thickness of different layers of limestone we are talking hundreds of millions of years.

Yes limestones occur in cyclic deposition with sandstones and shales, but it remains that limestones themselves are often hundreds of feet thick, and separated by many feet of sandstone and shale.

For example the Oolitic limestone:

Source: http://csmres.jmu.edu/geollab/Fichter/SedRx/Rocks/oospar1.html

Formation & Environments
Oolites form today in warm, supersaturated, shallow, highly aggitated marine water. They are commonly associated with zones of high tidal activity in a Subtidal Or Lower Intertidal Environment.
The mechanism of formation is to begin with a seed of some sort, perhaps a shell fragment. The strong currents wash this seed around on the bottom where it accumulates a layer of chemically precipitated calcite from the supersaturated water. Only this process is going on with uncounted trillions of oolites. The oolites are commonly found in large dunes (megaripples); if you could be there you could scoop up the oolites in your arms and hands.
The concentric layers is formed as the oolites are alternately exposed to pick up a concentric layer, and then buried to set the layer. The next exposure then adds another layer.

© Copyright Original Source

No, do the math, the vast energy petroleum resources can only be explained by millions of years of plant and micro organism deposits. Needed sunlight is not the issue, it is the time, light, nutrients, and volume of organic material required to produce the petroleum and natural gas.

It is not rational to try to reason with one who is either a jester or very likely not sane. He thinks he can just make up jobs for God and Angels and that just because he can think it up, it is just as valid as any concept derived through legitimate scientific endeavor or theological study.

I realize I've engaged him as well. But the more we interact with him, the more irrational he becomes.

Jim

[shunyadragon]

It is not rational to try to reason with one who is either a jester or very likely not sane. He thinks he can just make up jobs for God and Angels and that just because he can think it up, it is just as valid as any concept derived through legitimate scientific endeavor or theological study.

I realize I've engaged him as well. But the more we interact with him, the more irrational he becomes.

Jim

I realize this, and this is the same problem with seer, JohnMartin, and Old 'Mr. Black'?. I do limit my responses, once I have explained something I usually do not go back. I have dropped responding to hansgeorg in some lines of posts in other threads. It is easier to do this in science, but it is a given that hansgeorg, seer and John Martin reject modern science and math. Tassman is the one that will engage seer in series of repetitive posts 100s of posts half life of eternity, or forever which ever comes first. I admire Tassman for his patience, but it eventually trends toward self-abuse. I will not go there.

[Bret]

By assuming that Earth and Sea were about equal in parts of surface previous to Flood,

It's easy to support your contention when you can just make stuff up.

[hansgeorg]

He is probably correct, the following describes chalk formation and where it occurs:

Source: http://sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/A-Fizzy-Rock/Science-Ideas-and-Concepts/Limestone-origins

Chalk is a special form of limestone mainly formed in deeper water from the shell remains of microscopic marine plants and animals such as coccolithophores and foraminifera. Unless deeply buried, most chalks are relatively soft rock with a high calcium carbonate content. The famous White Cliffs of Dover bordering the English Channel consist of chalk deposits.

© Copyright Original Source

Not disputing that part.

Regardless of how limestones form the time issue is immense, and we can observe different kinds of limestone forming today and measure the amount of time required. Considering the vast extent and thickness of different layers of limestone we are talking hundreds of millions of years.

You are looking the wrong way, when observing how limestone is formed, since the slower processes are not the ones prevailing during Flood.

Even today, more rapid processes are actually there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement

Perhaps so, but it might have been higher up to Flood, and even a "significant amount of time" is still far from millions or billions of years.

Yes limestones occur in cyclic deposition with sandstones and shales, but it remains that limestones themselves are often hundreds of feet thick, and separated by many feet of sandstone and shale.

For example the Oolitic limestone:

Source: http://csmres.jmu.edu/geollab/Fichter/SedRx/Rocks/oospar1.html

Formation & Environments
Oolites form today in warm, supersaturated, shallow, highly aggitated marine water. They are commonly associated with zones of high tidal activity in a Subtidal Or Lower Intertidal Environment.
The mechanism of formation is to begin with a seed of some sort, perhaps a shell fragment. The strong currents wash this seed around on the bottom where it accumulates a layer of chemically precipitated calcite from the supersaturated water. Only this process is going on with uncounted trillions of oolites. The oolites are commonly found in large dunes (megaripples); if you could be there you could scoop up the oolites in your arms and hands.
The concentric layers is formed as the oolites are alternately exposed to pick up a concentric layer, and then buried to set the layer. The next exposure then adds another layer.

© Copyright Original Source

[/QUOTE]

Your quote says nothing about how quickly or slowly the oolithic layers formed.

No, do the math, the vast energy petroleum resources can only be explained by millions of years of plant and micro organism deposits. Needed sunlight is not the issue, it is the time, light, nutrients, and volume of organic material required to produce the petroleum and natural gas.

I was actually giving for limestone rather than petrol, but showing how contemporaneous existence of precisely organic material, living up to flood, is feasible.

As to petrol, it can form very quickly.

[hansgeorg]

It is not rational to try to reason with one who is either a jester or very likely not sane. He thinks he can just make up jobs for God and Angels and that just because he can think it up, it is just as valid as any concept derived through legitimate scientific endeavor or theological study.

I realize I've engaged him as well. But the more we interact with him, the more irrational he becomes.

I realize this, and this is the same problem with seer, JohnMartin, and Old 'Mr. Black'?. I do limit my responses, once I have explained something I usually do not go back. I have dropped responding to hansgeorg in some lines of posts in other threads. It is easier to do this in science, but it is a given that hansgeorg, seer and John Martin reject modern science and math. Tassman is the one that will engage seer in series of repetitive posts 100s of posts half life of eternity, or forever which ever comes first. I admire Tassman for his patience, but it eventually trends toward self-abuse. I will not go there.

You know, that kind of talk looks a bit like calumny.

Calling people insane because they disagree on how one is to understand (not everyday deal with, but understand as concept) the world we live in reminds me of the Inquisition - except it did not use the insanity charge, and it limited the charge of apostasy to those who were actually obliged to Christianity by baptism.

[hansgeorg]

It's easy to support your contention when you can just make stuff up.

Anyone who studies the past beyond the actual traditions or accounts of it, needs to make stuff up, and then check whether it will explain the things to be explained.

[shunyadragon]

You are looking the wrong way, when observing how limestone is formed, since the slower processes are not the ones prevailing during Flood.

Slower processes are the only way limestones form naturally. Your explanations fail unless you are going to appeal to angels or a fideist approach that everything was created as is with the appearance of age.

What you are also neglecting is the weathering of limestone topography, soil formation, and formation of limestone caves which require millions of years. Limestone precipitate in caves show annual rings that easily dates of hundreds of thousands of years. There is absolutely no evidence that this can happen rapidly.

Even today, more rapid processes are actually there.

There is no evidence today of these huge limestone formations forming rapidly. The observed evidence today only shows progressive precipitation of carbonates, and slow processes Ooolites forming in tidal coastal regions. If you can show evidence of the formation of limestone and layers of coral reefs forming rapidly please do. Such evidence does not exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement

This reference is bizzaro ridiculous. There is no evidence that limestones form in any remote way as we make cement today. These are not natural processes objectively observed in limestone formations. This cannot explain the coral formations, limestone precipitate deposition, nor oolites deposits.

Perhaps so, but it might have been higher up to Flood, and even a "significant amount of time" is still far from millions or billions of years.

Based on the actual objective evidence this is impossible.



For example the Oolitic limestone:

Source: http://csmres.jmu.edu/geollab/Fichter/SedRx/Rocks/oospar1.html

Formation & Environments
Oolites form today in warm, supersaturated, shallow, highly aggitated marine water. They are commonly associated with zones of high tidal activity in a Subtidal Or Lower Intertidal Environment.
The mechanism of formation is to begin with a seed of some sort, perhaps a shell fragment. The strong currents wash this seed around on the bottom where it accumulates a layer of chemically precipitated calcite from the supersaturated water. Only this process is going on with uncounted trillions of oolites. The oolites are commonly found in large dunes (megaripples); if you could be there you could scoop up the oolites in your arms and hands.
The concentric layers is formed as the oolites are alternately exposed to pick up a concentric layer, and then buried to set the layer. The next exposure then adds another layer.

© Copyright Original Source

[/QUOTE]

Your quote says nothing about how quickly or slowly the oolithic layers formed. [/quote]

Yhe above reference describes a gradual formation of Ooolitic limestone very slowly over millions of years. You have to read the whole site and understand geology. Absolutely NO, hundreds of feet of limestone in many different formations over the thousands of feet of strata cannot form quickly nor in flood deposited environments. Coral reefs are found with in these formations that formed in situ, which is impossible in a flood scenario.



I was actually giving for limestone rather than petrol, but showing how contemporaneous existence of precisely organic material, living up to flood, is feasible. [/quote]

No, not feasible for either limestone nor petroleum in a short time span you propose.

As to petrol, it can form very quickly.

Yes, but not in the volume that exists in the earth;s resources.