Maybe less a theological question than a practical one...

[nikolai_42]

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
I John 4:1

Or maybe I'm more interested in seeing how this is answered theologically since I know that the question may not be properly answerable in purely written form.

But the question is begged...how does one try the spirits? Before you respond with something like "read verse 2" (which gives a standard by which to test or try spirits) consider that this is a standard - not an indicator how to judge.

I guess I'm a little interested to find out how one approaches this from a theological perspective - which is necessarily intellectual - when the admonition is one that supercedes (not excludes, mind you) the intellect. Or is this merely a way of John telling others that we are to test the doctrine of others? If that is the case, why wouldn't he say "doctrine" or "teaching"? I have to say that I would have a little trouble with that approach since the Greek word is pneuma - the same word used in the common NT term "Holy Spirit". And if spiritual things are spiritually discerned...and this is the same John who in the same epistle said that the readers had need that no man should teach them because they had in them the anointing which taught them all things...

I'm interested to see what responses (reactions?) there are to this. There is a secondary question in my mind, but it goes off in a specific direction so I will hold on to it for now.

[RonC]

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
I John 4:1

Or maybe I'm more interested in seeing how this is answered theologically since I know that the question may not be properly answerable in purely written form.

But the question is begged...how does one try the spirits? Before you respond with something like "read verse 2" (which gives a standard by which to test or try spirits) consider that this is a standard - not an indicator how to judge.

I guess I'm a little interested to find out how one approaches this from a theological perspective - which is necessarily intellectual - when the admonition is one that supercedes (not excludes, mind you) the intellect

A great and important question…

My first contention would be that theology does not demand an intellectual approach or perspective. It only requires an intellectual component should one desire to communicate one’s theological understanding to another person… therefore requiring one to conceptualize and verbalize. That is also a valid understanding of scripture – verbal conceptualizations of that which is beyond words.

Or is this merely a way of John telling others that we are to test the doctrine of others? If that is the case, why wouldn't he say "doctrine" or "teaching"?

Though the idea of questioning others preaching is definitely a possibility, as you indicate, given the specific word choice the meaning is on a different plane.

I have to say that I would have a little trouble with that approach since the Greek word is pneuma - the same word used in the common NT term "Holy Spirit". And if spiritual things are spiritually discerned...and this is the same John who in the same epistle said that the readers had need that no man should teach them because they had in them the anointing which taught them all things...

I believe this is a direct reference to Luke 17:21 “the kingdom of God is within you…” and this was said to the Pharisees in answer to their question!

I'm interested to see what responses (reactions?) there are to this. There is a secondary question in my mind, but it goes off in a specific direction so I will hold on to it for now.

If we understand Jesus’ teaching in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God is within us… and we see Jesus’ teaching in Luke 11:2 “and when we pray, say, “Our Father who art in heaven…” we get some clarity… if we then add to this the fact that almost every time the term proseuchomai is used (which is translated as pray in Luke 11) there is some reference to privacy… though not conceptualized in a way that is readily available to the modern western sensibility, we do get an inkling of some transcendent teaching here… and how it may be that spirit of the creator breathed into each of us to make us "living souls" is the same as the light Jesus tells us not to hide under a basket and is the light which illuminates and clarifies and distinguishes between truth and all else.

[Obsidian]

I think it's just saying to read the Bible and pay attention to the apostolic teachings. I think most heresies are kinda obvious if you're well-grounded in scripture.

[rhutchin]

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
I John 4:1

Or maybe I'm more interested in seeing how this is answered theologically since I know that the question may not be properly answerable in purely written form.

But the question is begged...how does one try the spirits? Before you respond with something like "read verse 2" (which gives a standard by which to test or try spirits) consider that this is a standard - not an indicator how to judge.

I guess I'm a little interested to find out how one approaches this from a theological perspective - which is necessarily intellectual - when the admonition is one that supercedes (not excludes, mind you) the intellect. Or is this merely a way of John telling others that we are to test the doctrine of others? If that is the case, why wouldn't he say "doctrine" or "teaching"? I have to say that I would have a little trouble with that approach since the Greek word is pneuma - the same word used in the common NT term "Holy Spirit". And if spiritual things are spiritually discerned...and this is the same John who in the same epistle said that the readers had need that no man should teach them because they had in them the anointing which taught them all things...

I'm interested to see what responses (reactions?) there are to this. There is a secondary question in my mind, but it goes off in a specific direction so I will hold on to it for now.

We have--

1 John 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

We first have the contrast, "try the spirits Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:" So, one issue is that many people may claim to speak that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to them but John says that this may not be true. We must be careful what we accept from others because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are to test, examine, and analyze what we are being told. We might follow the example of the Bereans of Acts 17 who, when they heard Paul speak, "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

John offers a much simpler test -- Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. This seems strange because a false prophet could easily claim this and then spout a bunch of lies. However, to confess that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" as John said in John 1 is to confess that Jesus is God and all that this means. So, to confess that Christ is God is the major dividing line between false spirits and the Holy Spirit. Given that false spirits come from the Devil who is the father of lies, it would appear that they cannot tell (and perhaps do not want to accept) the truth on this one important point.

When we look at the other religions in the world, they all seem to agree on this one point: Whoever or whatever Jesus is, he is not God. We must reject these, per John, and accept only the words of those prophets who declared that Jesus is God and whose writings have been collected for easy reading in the NT. Whenever someone, a prophet, speaks of these words, we can then follow the example set by the Bereans.

[RonC]

We have--

1 John 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

We first have the contrast, "try the spirits Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:" So, one issue is that many people may claim to speak that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to them but John says that this may not be true. We must be careful what we accept from others because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are to test, examine, and analyze what we are being told. We might follow the example of the Bereans of Acts 17 who, when they heard Paul speak, "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

How important to put verses in context. Thank you for that… often we can overlook it.

John offers a much simpler test -- Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. This seems strange because a false prophet could easily claim this and then spout a bunch of lies. However, to confess that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" as John said in John 1 is to confess that Jesus is God and all that this means. So, to confess that Christ is God is the major dividing line between false spirits and the Holy Spirit. Given that false spirits come from the Devil who is the father of lies, it would appear that they cannot tell (and perhaps do not want to accept) the truth on this one important point.

You conflate two verses from two different Books of the Bible… That has lead to a misreading of 1John 4.

When we look at the other religions in the world, they all seem to agree on this one point: Whoever or whatever Jesus is, he is not God. We must reject these, per John, and accept only the words of those prophets who declared that Jesus is God and whose writings have been collected for easy reading in the NT. Whenever someone, a prophet, speaks of these words, we can then follow the example set by the Bereans.

That is not really accurate. The text of 1John 4:2 says that every spirit which is confessing (or in context probably connoting “says the same thing as” or “is in agreement with”) “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh” [then that spirit] is from God.

The text does not say that only those spirits which say “Jesus Christ is God” are spirits from God. You may infer that if you chose because verse 15 says something similar to what you infer, but even that verse is different in meaning than John 1, and verses 1 and 2 of 1John 4 are subtly different than verse 15 of that epistle.

1John 4:1 counsels us not to believe every spirit but to “examine”, to “prove for ourselves”, (dokimazo) if they are from God… and (1John 4:2) if they are in accord with Jesus Christ having come in the flesh then they are from God… YNG, WEB and most others concur. NLT renders the verse: “If a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ became a human being, that person has the Spirit of God.”

This “test” requires that we know and understand the message of the Divine Incarnate not that we believe any “spirit” (priest, teacher or minister) which can falsely confess that it believes Jesus has come in the flesh, but rather that the “spirit” be in accord with or in unison with the meaning and message of the Incarnate Jesus. Though the application of the teachings from Acts which you cite may be valid, I believe that the teaching of Jesus which I cited earlier as well as other teachings of Jesus (you know the tree by the fruit, for instance) are more what 1John is telling us to apply… see verse 12 “God dwells in us” and most importantly “God is love and he who dwells in love dwells in God and God in him”... especially given that the term [i]agape[/] has the connotation of oneness…

[rhutchin]

We have--

1 John 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

...
We are to test, examine, and analyze what we are being told. We might follow the example of the Bereans of Acts 17 who, when they heard Paul speak, "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

John offers a much simpler test -- Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. This seems strange because a false prophet could easily claim this and then spout a bunch of lies. However, to confess that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" as John said in John 1 is to confess that Jesus is God and all that this means. So, to confess that Christ is God is the major dividing line between false spirits and the Holy Spirit. Given that false spirits come from the Devil who is the father of lies, it would appear that they cannot tell (and perhaps do not want to accept) the truth on this one important point.

You conflate two verses from two different Books of the Bible… That has lead to a misreading of 1John 4.

I don't see it. We don't have John expressing two different concepts in these verses.

To say "the word became flesh" is no different than saying "Christ became flesh."

To say "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is no different than saying "the word is come in the flesh."

Rather than a conflation of two concepts, we have John being consistent in that which he has written over time from his gospel on Christ to his epistle in 1 John.

How this might cause someone to misread 1 John is not readily apparent and you do not explain it. So, we can do little but relegate it to a personal opinion.

When we look at the other religions in the world, they all seem to agree on this one point: Whoever or whatever Jesus is, he is not God. We must reject these, per John, and accept only the words of those prophets who declared that Jesus is God and whose writings have been collected for easy reading in the NT. Whenever someone, a prophet, speaks of these words, we can then follow the example set by the Bereans.

That is not really accurate. The text of 1John 4:2 says that every spirit which is confessing (or in context probably connoting “says the same thing as” or “is in agreement with”) “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh” [then that spirit] is from God.

The text does not say that only those spirits which say “Jesus Christ is God” are spirits from God. You may infer that if you chose because verse 15 says something similar to what you infer, but even that verse is different in meaning than John 1, and verses 1 and 2 of 1John 4 are subtly different than verse 15 of that epistle.

1John 4:1 counsels us not to believe every spirit but to “examine”, to “prove for ourselves”, (dokimazo) if they are from God… and (1John 4:2) if they are in accord with Jesus Christ having come in the flesh then they are from God… YNG, WEB and most others concur. NLT renders the verse: “If a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ became a human being, that person has the Spirit of God.”

You say that my claim is inaccurate but then you explain the same thing that I said. So, what is the distinction that you intended to make? I am befuddled.

This “test” requires that we know and understand the message of the Divine Incarnate not that we believe any “spirit” (priest, teacher or minister) which can falsely confess that it believes Jesus has come in the flesh, but rather that the “spirit” be in accord with or in unison with the meaning and message of the Incarnate Jesus. Though the application of the teachings from Acts which you cite may be valid, I believe that the teaching of Jesus which I cited earlier as well as other teachings of Jesus (you know the tree by the fruit, for instance) are more what 1John is telling us to apply… see verse 12 “God dwells in us” and most importantly “God is love and he who dwells in love dwells in God and God in him”... especially given that the term [i]agape[/] has the connotation of oneness…

I think John is too clear in what he writes. When he says, "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:" he means exactly that and other translations drive this point home.

As much as we might want to infer that "This 'test' requires that we know and understand the message of the Divine Incarnate," John does not write this. The person who confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. That is the test.

[RonC]

I was addressing this specific statement you made: “So, to confess that Christ is God is the major dividing line between false spirits and the Holy Spirit.” Of course, as usual, I may not have been clear. But…

That is not what the epistle says. The emphasis in this epistle is not that Jesus Christ is God; the emphasis is that some “spirits” come from the world and –
We are not of the world.
We are children of God.
Love one another for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.,
He that knows not love knows not God, for God is love.

He makes the point that no man has seen God at any time, if we love one another, God dwells in us.

The epistle is about God and God’s love which dwells within us being our guide in discerning truth from lies… If it were not it would be inconsistent with Jesus teaching in Matthew:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;”

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Matthew 7:21)

and John tells us to look in the same place which Jesus says the kingdom is:

neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Which is exactly where 1John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance.

These may seem like trivial issues... but when they are bricks used to build an exegetical edifice they can become seriously problematic...

[Obsidian]

"Christ" is just a Greek version of a Jewish term, "Messiah." So probably John was suggesting that true prophets will accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah -- presumably with all the divinity ascribed to the Messiah in various OT passages -- and also accept Jesus as human, meaning a historical and authentic person who actually died for sin and actually rose again and actually ascended.

The gnostics actually tended to deny both that Jesus was Jewish and also that he was human. So they were pretty messed up.

[hedrick]

I think the original question is a good one. What specifically is meant by trying the spirits, as opposed to simply being careful about one's judgements?

The NT tends to see the conflict between good and evil as going being individuals choosing between right and wrong actions and beliefs in isolation. Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't want to suggest that everyone else is possessed by literal evil spirits. Yet beliefs do typically come from one's spiritual commitments and worldview. Thus it does make sense for people to judge not just the specific opinion but whether it comes from a Christian spirit or some opposing spiritual system.

[Obsidian]

The fact that John gives them a theological litmus test to use for their situation indicates that he's talking about intellectual judging of the spirits, and not any sort of emotionalistic test.

[rhutchin]

I think John is too clear in what he writes. When he says, "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:" he means exactly that and other translations drive this point home.

I was addressing this specific statement you made: “So, to confess that Christ is God is the major dividing line between false spirits and the Holy Spirit.” Of course, as usual, I may not have been clear. But…

That is not what the epistle says. The emphasis in this epistle is not that Jesus Christ is God; the emphasis is that some “spirits” come from the world and –
We are not of the world.
We are children of God.
Love one another for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.,
He that knows not love knows not God, for God is love.

He makes the point that no man has seen God at any time, if we love one another, God dwells in us.

The epistle is about God and God’s love which dwells within us being our guide in discerning truth from lies… If it were not it would be inconsistent with Jesus teaching in Matthew:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;”

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Matthew 7:21)

and John tells us to look in the same place which Jesus says the kingdom is:

neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Which is exactly where 1John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance.

These may seem like trivial issues... but when they are bricks used to build an exegetical edifice they can become seriously problematic...

For now, forget what I said earlier and let's deal with 1 John 4:1-2. I see no reason to understand what John is saying other than in the straightforward way in which we read it. False spirits (e.g. false prophets) are those that deny that Christ (God) came in the flesh. We could then compare various religions to see where they stand on this issue.

[RonC]

For now, forget what I said earlier and let's deal with 1 John 4:1-2. I see no reason to understand what John is saying other than in the straightforward way in which we read it. False spirits (e.g. false prophets) are those that deny that Christ (God) came in the flesh. We could then compare various religions to see where they stand on this issue.

Please reread my post and show some respect by addressing what I have said as I have shown respect by addressing what you have said. If I was unclear in what I said, ask and I will do my best to clarify… but you have simply stated the same concept using different words and I believe I already addressed this issue in my earlier post which you gave short shrift to.

[RonC]

"Christ" is just a Greek version of a Jewish term, "Messiah." So probably John was suggesting that true prophets will accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah -- presumably with all the divinity ascribed to the Messiah in various OT passages -- and also accept Jesus as human, meaning a historical and authentic person who actually died for sin and actually rose again and actually ascended.

The term christos is used to translate the Hebrew term mashiyack. The term means anointed and is used dozens of times in the OT. It is translated into English as “messiah” only twice out of those dozens of times and that is in Daniel. Even when the phrase is “christos kurios”(χριστὸς κυρίου in 1Samuel) it is translated into English as “Lord’s anointed.”

The fact that John gives them a theological litmus test to use for their situation indicates that he's talking about intellectual judging of the spirits, and not any sort of emotionalistic test.

To boil this brilliant metaphysical teaching down to some theological litmus test is belittling to the divine truth of scripture.

John does not distinguish or even address emotional vs. intellectual discernment let alone judgment. 1 John 4:1 counsels us not to believe every spirit but to “examine”, to “prove for ourselves”, (dokimazo) if they are from God… not to be a judge but a questioner.

The gnostics actually tended to deny both that Jesus was Jewish and also that he was human. So they were pretty messed up.

Everything cannot be boiled down to “See spot run” and to do so is to miss the mark (the definition of sin) and make the Gnostics seem like master Christian metaphysicians.

[rhutchin]

For now, forget what I said earlier and let's deal with 1 John 4:1-2. I see no reason to understand what John is saying other than in the straightforward way in which we read it. False spirits (e.g. false prophets) are those that deny that Christ (God) came in the flesh. We could then compare various religions to see where they stand on this issue.

Please reread my post and show some respect by addressing what I have said as I have shown respect by addressing what you have said. If I was unclear in what I said, ask and I will do my best to clarify… but you have simply stated the same concept using different words and I believe I already addressed this issue in my earlier post which you gave short shrift to.

Let's stay on target and address 1 John 4:1-2. You ended your exegesis saying, "Which is exactly where 1 John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance." This needs some explanation because your exegesis leading up to this statement takes off by saying that some spirits come from the world and never gets back to tying this into the need to confess that Christ came in the flesh. Too many loose ends that need to be tied up. Can you bring the exegesis around to the point at issue in this thread?

[RonC]

Let's stay on target and address 1 John 4:1-2. You ended your exegesis saying, "Which is exactly where 1 John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance." This needs some explanation because your exegesis leading up to this statement takes off by saying that some spirits come from the world and never gets back to tying this into the need to confess that Christ came in the flesh. Too many loose ends that need to be tied up. Can you bring the exegesis around to the point at issue in this thread?

I quote your entire post so that when I juxtapose statements you make in it they will not be deemed "taken out of context".

Let's stay on target and address 1 John 4:1-2... Your exegesis… never gets back to tying this into the need to confess that Christ came in the flesh…. Can you bring the exegesis around to the point at issue in this thread?

The “point of this thread” as defined in the OP is 1John 4:1, not 1John 4:1-2 as you assert. The statement regarding Christ having come in the flesh is verse 2. When you brought that into the conversation I was very supportive because you were saying context is important. However now you seem to be arguing that we need limit the issue not to what the OP addresses (1John 4:1) and not to the context of the chapter in which the verses are, but rather to solely the first and second verses of the chapter thereby framing the discussion to your purposes not the OP and not the epistle itself.

… your exegesis leading up to this statement takes off by saying that some spirits come from the world and never gets back to tying this into the need to confess that Christ came in the flesh.

If you read what I wrote with care and respect you will see that I addressed this very clearly. What I said was that: The emphasis in this epistle is not that Jesus Christ is God. It is not Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I think that to assert that the emphasis of the epistle is that Jesus Christ came in the flesh or that Jesus Christ is God is to misread the point of the teachings contained in the epistle. I was not claiming that the epistle does not say that; I was saying that the focus, the message, the teaching does not emphasize that. John is saying, “OK, we know that Jesus is the Son of God, but there is more…” He is not beating the same drum; he is giving us additional new truth and understanding.

You ended your exegesis saying, "Which is exactly where 1 John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance." This needs some explanation.

I offered more than “some explanation”, I cited the words and teachings of Jesus which John is referring to in this epistle in support of my contention. You chose not to address any of that. Please cite what I wrote and what about it you do not understand and I will do my best to clarify. I repeat my remarks and look forward to your comments:

the emphasis [of 1John 4] is that some “spirits” come from the world and –
We are not of the world.
We are children of God.
Love one another for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.,
He that knows not love knows not God, for God is love.

He makes the point that no man has seen God at any time, if we love one another, God dwells in us.

The epistle is about God and God’s love which dwells within us being our guide in discerning truth from lies… If it were not it would be inconsistent with Jesus’ teaching in Matthew:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Jesus specifically says that acknowledging his

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Matthew 7:21)

and John tells us to look in the same place which Jesus says the kingdom is:

neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Which is exactly where 1John 4 exhorts us to look for guidance.

For additional clarity I additional cite verse 6 in which John clearly says how we discern the spirit of truth from the spirit of error: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (emphasis mine)