Divorce rate and prayer, where does this stat come from?

[SlapShot]

The atheist sites seem to be quoting http://www.barna.org/barna-update/ar...stics-released
The Barna Group reported divorce rates amongst born-again Christians is significantly higher than that for atheist/agnostics. A more recent 2008 Barna report shows a closer divorce rate gap between born-again Christians (32% had been divorced) and atheist/agnostics (30% had been divorced)

Barna article:

A representative from Barna also pointed out the atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.

I don't see how this skews anything. This poll was of the percentage of people divorced. You'd exclude all cohabitors/non-married from the poll.

[Pilgrim]

Again, the OP is not about comparing the divorce rate of Christians to Atheists or even people of faith to atheists. The OP question is about the effect of prayer on divorce.

[Darth Executor]

Barna article:
I don't see how this skews anything.

Christians need to get married to have sex. Granted, most don't actually obey this but I'd imagine they at least try, or at the very least try to show the appearance of appropriateness. As such, they might rush into a marriage they might not have otherwise. Atheists have no religious pressure, and if they hang out with other atheists, no cultural pressure, so they're more likely to avoid marriage in the first place, and if they do get married, be more picky about it.

[technomage]

The presenters of the seminar were a couple names David and Jan Stoop.

Pilgrim, I fear that it is possible that you have fallen for a sales pitch. The Stoops make their money by selling their services as marriage counselors, and for them to offer their own statistics as proof of the effectiveness of their methods is not precisely what I would call reliable.

Now, it is possible that their methods are that effective--if that is the case, well and good. But I would like to see an independent evaluation of their statistics before I relied on them.

[Sheepdog]

Somebody pulled the statistic out of thin air. It has no basis in evidence.

I like how Lazy Sniper just jumps to conclusions for no reason at all.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Oh definitely, there are some that agree it's acceptable for physical/mental abuse and infidelity, then some that believe it's only okay in cases of infidelity, some that think that only a man can divorce his wife, and then those who believe it's never acceptable.

In my experience as a conservative Christian, the majority of Christians believe the first two options, but while "acceptable"--it is not preferred, and the abuser should get help, and if he/she can overcome whatever issues they have, the abused should forgive and reconciliation take place. However, usually the abuser doesn't even see themselves as such. And in many cases the abused simply cannot forgive (which is why God mentioned the hardness of our hearts). The same thing with infidelity. These things make the innocent party allowed to have a Biblical divorce, but in my opinion, and I think in the spirit of these allowances, the innocent party should find it in their heart to forgive if the breaker of the covenant repents sincerely. I probably would be in the minority to believe that unless every effort (considering the circumstances, obviously one spouse that attempts to kill another is different than other cases) is put forth by the innocent party to seek the repentance of the offender and reconciliation, then the divorce is not truly "Biblical" though allowed.

I have heard of the the only a man is allowed divorce idea, but it is a minority.

One other allowance is made, and it is unusual in that it is almost a command to divorce rather than an allowance. If you have a situation in which a believer is married to an unbeliever (so as not to complicate things, let's say this came about by one person converting after marriage, and the other person not converting, or making a show of conversion but apostasizes) and the nonbeliever wants to leave and refuses to live a Christian marriage, the believer is not to compel them to stay. And unless the other person becomes a believer cannot remarry them.

In the case of two believers, there is then the issue of one person seeking a divorce when there are no Biblical grounds. The state will allow it. But that person will be considered an adulterer if they have relations afterwards.

Now those are the strict rules, and the individual situations would have to be counseled and ruled upon by church leadership.

I think the statistics that I have seen are unhelpful. When a person converts during marriage, it causes a great deal of problems, and I am sure those divorce rates are high. Are there separate statistics on when both people are Christians when they get married for divorce? And here is another chestnut, we Christians believe that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is. So the true statistic is one that only God can know, and I know just by my experiences with other Christians etc., that divorce is not at all at first or easy option with people who are walking their faith everyday and submitting to pastoral guidance.

In other words, I find the statistics pretty useless.

Now with the prayer issue, I would say the reason is because the person who just pays lip service to being a Christian is not likely to be comfortable with this practice, and will not keep it up, and thus, this is an indication that you have a couple who are devout and that will follow the guidelines above. If those guidelines are followed, and here is the important part, church leadership demanded that they be followed and impart church discipline on offenders, the divorce rate among those who appear to pay more than lip service would be quite low.

I have known many people in which one party seeks an unBiblical divorce, and the innocent party does everything they can for reconciliation. One gal I knew even waited until her ex remarried before she ever considered remarriage herself, continually praying for reconciliation until the door was irrevocably closed. Now that is not required, but I see this kind of determination often.

I think the church has failed miserably in the area of marriage. I think we fail miserably in campaigning so hard against homosexual marriage (which I do think should be campaigned against) but do virtually nothing to speak out against no-fault divorce laws which to me as just as Biblically abominable and just as damaging to a stable society.

If God said to me one day, I will grant you one wish out of two. The US will abandon the idea of no-fault divorce or the US will forever outlaw homosexual marriage, I would choose the first. I find it much more an outrage than the second. I also believe in a return to common-law marriage throughout the entire US. (well possibly except for LA which doesn't follow common law).

I wonder how many Christians approve of divorcing simply because the very presence of your significant other makes you yawn yourself to death

None. I would question the obedience, and thus committment, of any mature Christian that did. An unlearned baby Christian might not know any better.

(I know a few peeps who married for reasons mainly down to physical attraction, and are now in their late 40s/early 50s, who feel that way. There's a lesson there, eh?)

Yes there is. And the lesson is also that your vows have consequences, and if being bored is the worst thing that happens to you, you are blessed.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Pilgrim, I fear that it is possible that you have fallen for a sales pitch. The Stoops make their money by selling their services as marriage counselors, and for them to offer their own statistics as proof of the effectiveness of their methods is not precisely what I would call reliable.

Now, it is possible that their methods are that effective--if that is the case, well and good. But I would like to see an independent evaluation of their statistics before I relied on them.

Would the independent evaluators be volunteers? Is it possible for them to be unbiased? (I believe true unbias is impossible), so your reason for dismissal out of hand does not appear to be valid simply because they (OMG) make money.

I think that finding is pretty reasonable considering that praying regularly together is ackward and uncomfortable at first even for the devout that I know, and there is no way that a person who wasn't truly committed to following Biblical rules on marriage would keep that practice up.

[technomage]

Would the independent evaluators be volunteers? Is it possible for them to be unbiased? (I believe true unbias is impossible), so your reason for dismissal out of hand does not appear to be valid simply because they (OMG) make money.

In this particular case, all that would be required for "unbiased" independant evaluation is that the evaluators not have a vested interest in the product being sold. I don't think that's an impossible standard, nor do I feel that it's an unreasonable request on my part.

I think that finding is pretty reasonable considering that praying regularly together is ackward and uncomfortable at first even for the devout that I know, and there is no way that a person who wasn't truly committed to following Biblical rules on marriage would keep that practice up.

I would hesitate to guess without some form of evidence.

[geebob]

FYI, I emailed the professor who ran the class, a professor of psychology. He says that the text they used was "When Couples Pray" by Cheri Fuller. where the 1 % figure was given. There is more than one book by this title.

He said that he doubted the statistic on research grounds but still believed that the research indicated that prayer established a buffer in a relationship against divorce.

He didn't want to be quoted by name on this just anywhere on the internet.

I asked him about the studies that where the source of this claim but he said he didn't have it on hand and recomended that I look at a database like Psychinfo or get assistance from a librarian.

[Zero Tolerance]

Wow, dizzle with they haymakers!!!

And Pilgrim, I was going to *smh* at you being a pastor and approving of divorce had it not been for that second post which recognizes failure and the grace of the Lord.

I clasped at my chest for a moment!

[Pilgrim]

I'm not sure what you mean by that Z. Are you complimenting me?

[Zero Tolerance]

I'm saying that I at first found it disturbing that a pastor would say that divorce is a logical solution to ending conflict in marriage, but you amended as "only in special cases," and that the two parties "know they have failed." I'm cool with that. I grit my teeth at the concept of "no fault divorce." NONSENSE! Someone screwed up, one, the other, or both!!!

[KingsGambit]

My pastor actually preached on divorce last week and pulled out these same statistics about Christians being just as likely to divorce, and chalked this entirely up to Satan specifically attacking Christian couples.

My theory, and I have absolutely no citation for this, as to a major factor as to why couples who pray are less likely to divorce, is that couples who constantly pray are more likely to be genuine Christians, and that many of those who were surveyed in the relevant divorce surveys claimed to be Christian for the purposes of the survey but are, in reality, no more than culture, coffeehouse, or twice-a-year Christians who maybe said a sinner's prayer once at junior high camp 30 years ago.

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim, I fear that it is possible that you have fallen for a sales pitch. The Stoops make their money by selling their services as marriage counselors, and for them to offer their own statistics as proof of the effectiveness of their methods is not precisely what I would call reliable.

Now, it is possible that their methods are that effective--if that is the case, well and good. But I would like to see an independent evaluation of their statistics before I relied on them.

THey weren't offering their own statistics. They were referring to other resources. But if that's your criteria I can no longer take anything you say on your own behalf with any seriousness because you can't possibly be telling the truth sense you have a vested interest in your own point of view.