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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Assurance of Salvation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
    Wow, that is interesting. I have yet to hear any pastor or fellow Christian say that "Crazy Love" preaches false doctrine. Interesting. Anyways, many false believers would call themselves Christians, with that I agree. My issue here is that there will be many "Christians" (in quotes because they are not actually Christians) that will feel that they are absolutely assured of their salvation. For example, in the NIV version of Matthew 7, Jesus says : 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    This seems to imply that these people will feel that they are saved, but are not. Now they do feel they are saved because of the works they did, which is false, but they still will feel that they are saved. Thank you for the replies by the way. After reading Crazy Love, this has been an issue I have struggled with, as the book seems to challenge everyone to question their own faith in God, and their own salvation.
    Actually, the interesting thing is reading the part that most Christians just gloss over:

    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
    So the interesting thing to note is that either (1) they really didn't do these things (they just claimed to) or (2) they might have done some 'great works', but they didn't actually concern themselves with the 'will of God'. In eithercase, Jesus calls them 'evildoers', which would seem to show that they were actually quite lawless in their actions.

    This of course, is right after Jesus introduced the idea of 'knowing a tree by its fruit'.
    Last edited by phat8594; 03-19-2014, 05:41 PM.

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    • #17
      The most common view I hear is that doing the will of God, in that context, refers to entering in through the narrow gate, or eating the good fruit of a righteous prophet.

      Matthew 7
      13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
      14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
      15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
      16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
      17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
      18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
      19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
      20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


      However, I personally believe that doing the will of God might refer just to teaching correct doctrine. Under this view, the "every one" in verse 21 would refer to every prophet. Obviously, the teachers would be the same people most vocally calling him "Lord, Lord." This interpretation could readily explain why the only people that he condemns also turn out to be prophets. Hence, Matthew 7:21 would not be a warning to the average layperson at all — except to warn against being devoured by wolves.

      Comment


      • #18
        [QUOTE=Obsidian;32385]They seem to feel optimistic about their salvation. But the text does not say that they have assurance, or certainty.

        I agree with this. The text does not explicitly say they have assurance. However, I believe it can be implied. I could however be wrong.


        "They definitely point to their works. I just have a hard time believing that any person can get a whole lot of assurance out of his own works. But I guess maybe some people can."- Obsidian

        Some people can definitely feel like they have assurance from their works. I was one of these people. When I was younger, though I did not have a true relationship with God, I believed that I was saved based on what I did for God, and that I actually did believe I had a relationship with Him. Eventually I did come to real relationship with the Lord.

        "I will concede that I don't believe the primary purpose of Matthew 7 is to preach against works salvation. Preaching against works salvation is just a side effect of it. The main point of Matthew 7 is just that some people will twist Jesus's words, and that we can't believe everyone. But the people condemned are clearly not lukewarm Christians. They are religious leaders."- Obsidian
        I would disagree with your assumption here. I do not see how these would be "clearly" religious leaders. Where do you find that implication in this passage? One does not need to be a leader to Prophesy or do great works in the Lord's name.



        "I think it's questionable to interpret being attached to the vine as simply believing in Jesus. I think it refers more broadly to walking in the Spirit, or something similar."- Obsidian
        Ah, but if we are in Jesus we will walk in the Spirit, will we not? I agree though that it is not as cut and dry as I stated it. Even though I stated it that way for brevity, I apologize for not speaking more clearly in what I meant.


        "If we don't first have fire insurance, and we don't first know that we have fire insurance, then how can we possibly follow in the way that he demands?"- Obsidian

        I do believe that as believers, we DO have fire insurance. But, as I don't adhere to "once saved, always saved," it is possible to have assurance and fall away. Which I assume will be a point upon which we differ.

        "Hebrews 11:6
        But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


        Matthew 6:20
        But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal


        What good would the heavenly treasure be, if we could not access it? If we could lose the treasure by committing sin, or if we could lose it by believing in Jesus but not having a good enough type of faith (like RBerman teaches), then how is that treasure any better than the rusty treasure on earth? Hell is way worse than any moth."- Obsidian

        Our treasure will not be taken away, but if someone is not a true believer in Christ, nothing he/she does will be treasure in heaven. It will all be burnt up. I would be interested to hear what RBerman says about faith in this instance though. I don't believe one has to have a "good enough" type of faith, but the Word is clear that believing in God and Jesus Christ His son is more then just saying some words, it is about truly following the Lord, and not saying mere words to feel like we are covered by God. Our heart must turn to Him. Thanks for the reply!

        On another note, how do I copy quotes on here. I am new and struggling with this

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          They seem to feel optimistic about their salvation. But the text does not say that they have assurance, or certainty.



          They definitely point to their works. I just have a hard time believing that any person can get a whole lot of assurance out of his own works. But I guess maybe some people can.

          I will concede that I don't believe the primary purpose of Matthew 7 is to preach against works salvation. Preaching against works salvation is just a side effect of it. The main point of Matthew 7 is just that some people will twist Jesus's words, and that we can't believe everyone. But the people condemned are clearly not lukewarm Christians. They are religious leaders.



          I think it's questionable to interpret being attached to the vine as simply believing in Jesus. I think it refers more broadly to walking in the Spirit, or something similar.



          If we don't first have fire insurance, and we don't first know that we have fire insurance, then how can we possibly follow in the way that he demands?

          Hebrews 11:6
          But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


          Matthew 6:20
          But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal


          What good would the heavenly treasure be, if we could not access it? If we could lose the treasure by committing sin, or if we could lose it by believing in Jesus but not having a good enough type of faith (like RBerman teaches), then how is that treasure any better than the rusty treasure on earth? Hell is way worse than any moth.

          Matthew 10:42
          And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
          Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
          Actually, the interesting thing is reading the part that most Christians just gloss over:

          Matthew 7:21-23


          So the interesting thing to note is that either (1) they really didn't do these things (they just claimed to) or (2) they might have done some 'great works', but they didn't actually concern themselves with the 'will of God'. In eithercase, Jesus calls them 'evildoers', which would seem to show that they were actually quite lawless in their actions.

          This of course, is right after Jesus introduced the idea of 'knowing a tree by its fruit'.
          Love your point there phat, about the doing the Will of the father. It shows that we can do great works in Christ's name and not be doing the Will of the Father I believe. Thanks for posting

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            They seem to feel optimistic about their salvation. But the text does not say that they have assurance, or certainty.



            They definitely point to their works. I just have a hard time believing that any person can get a whole lot of assurance out of his own works. But I guess maybe some people can.

            I will concede that I don't believe the primary purpose of Matthew 7 is to preach against works salvation. Preaching against works salvation is just a side effect of it. The main point of Matthew 7 is just that some people will twist Jesus's words, and that we can't believe everyone. But the people condemned are clearly not lukewarm Christians. They are religious leaders.



            I think it's questionable to interpret being attached to the vine as simply believing in Jesus. I think it refers more broadly to walking in the Spirit, or something similar.



            If we don't first have fire insurance, and we don't first know that we have fire insurance, then how can we possibly follow in the way that he demands?

            Hebrews 11:6
            But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


            Matthew 6:20
            But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal


            What good would the heavenly treasure be, if we could not access it? If we could lose the treasure by committing sin, or if we could lose it by believing in Jesus but not having a good enough type of faith (like RBerman teaches), then how is that treasure any better than the rusty treasure on earth? Hell is way worse than any moth.

            Matthew 10:42
            And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            The most common view I hear is that doing the will of God, in that context, refers to entering in through the narrow gate, or eating the good fruit of a righteous prophet.

            Matthew 7
            13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
            14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
            15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
            16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
            17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
            18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
            19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
            20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


            However, I personally believe that doing the will of God might refer just to teaching correct doctrine. Under this view, the "every one" in verse 21 would refer to every prophet. Obviously, the teachers would be the same people most vocally calling him "Lord, Lord." This interpretation could readily explain why the only people that he condemns also turn out to be prophets. Hence, Matthew 7:21 would not be a warning to the average layperson at all — except to warn against being devoured by wolves.
            THere are many passages in the Word that talk about the Will of God, and I wouldn't say correct doctrine is what is mentioned with God's Will. Here are some passages that speak about God's Will:
            1 Thessalonians 5:18: in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus
            1 Peter 2:15: For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
            1 Thessalonians 4:3: For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

            These don't seem to point to correct doctrine as doing God's Will. And I just don't see teachers only in this passage. Thanks!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              The most common view I hear is that doing the will of God, in that context, refers to entering in through the narrow gate, or eating the good fruit of a righteous prophet.

              Matthew 7
              13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
              14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
              15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
              16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
              17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
              18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
              19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
              20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


              However, I personally believe that doing the will of God might refer just to teaching correct doctrine. Under this view, the "every one" in verse 21 would refer to every prophet. Obviously, the teachers would be the same people most vocally calling him "Lord, Lord." This interpretation could readily explain why the only people that he condemns also turn out to be prophets. Hence, Matthew 7:21 would not be a warning to the average layperson at all — except to warn against being devoured by wolves.
              Obsidian:

              It would seem that Jesus is continuing his warning against false prophets from Matthew 7:15-20 in vv.21-23. The latter section may be considered as an indiscriminate warning to all disciples not to presume one is genuinely known by Jesus if they have not obeyed the will of the Father (v.21). Regarding practicing "the will of my Father who is in heaven", I would take this expression to encompass the whole of Jesus' kingdom teachings on the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5-7 is addressed specifically to Jesus' disciples. At the very end of the Gospel, Jesus commissions the Eleven to instruct all the nations, teaching them to observe everything Jesus had commanded them. So we must keep in mind Jesus' other teachings throughout Matthew as well, for they are every bit as much the Father's will.

              More narrowly, however, Jesus seems to be addressing false prophets in vv.21-23. This section follows right off the heels of Jesus' warning to his disciples to not be lured in or duped by wicked, malicious false prophets (vv.15-20). In v.23 Jesus gives the final pronouncement to those who have claimed to do great works in his name to depart from his presence. They will be permanently banished from the kingdom on judgement day. V.22 is a real tip-off that Jesus has false prophets specifically in mind in this passage: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'" (ESV). These persons had "prophesied" (prophēteuō)1 in Jesus' name. This is not something your average, everyday nominal convert would claim to have done. Furthermore, they are referred to as persons who had worked lawlessness2 (anomia). This is a very serious charge as well.

              In short, I think there's something to be said for some of your insights on the aforementioned passage.


              Notes

              1 prophēteuō: "to prophesy, to speak an inspired message, sometimes encouraging obedience to God, sometimes proclaiming the future as a warning to preparedness and continued obedience".

              https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/propheteuo

              2 Cf. Psalm 6:8 (NASB):

              Depart from me, all you who do iniquity,
              For the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping.
              Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-19-2014, 07:57 PM.
              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
                On another note, how do I copy quotes on here. I am new and struggling with this
                Choose the post which you wish to quote. In its bottom right corner, click the "reply with quote" button.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh
                  These don't seem to point to correct doctrine as doing God's Will. And I just don't see teachers only in this passage. Thanks!
                  The passage does not clearly define what the will of God means. Sure, if you want to jump all over the Bible, then you can make the phrase mean anything. But the context of the verse does show that prophets are in view. And immediately prior to the verse, Jesus said that the prophets were wolves, or trees with bad fruit. The danger of the wolf clearly refers to doctrine, and based on numerous uses of the term "fruit" in scripture, I interpret the fruit to be doctrine as well. Whenever you reference a prophet, and then say that the prophet is doing "the will of God," clearly it implies that the prophet is prophesying correctly. It doesn't mean that the prophet is doing the will of God by giving to charity, treating his wife in a loving manner, avoiding covetousness in his heart, etc.

                  And of course, immediately prior to these verses, Jesus talked about the narrow path. The narrow path compares Jesus's doctrines to the dangerous doctrines of the wolves. If you want to look all around the Bible for a passage, here is a passage that clearly describes a preacher doing the will of God.

                  John 6
                  38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
                  39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
                  40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
                  41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.


                  In this passage, doing the will of God refers to preaching rightly -- holding himself out as the bread of life, saving souls, losing none.

                  On another note, how do I copy quotes on here. I am new and struggling with this
                  I manually type in the words "[quote]" and "[/quuote]." It takes some practice.

                  Originally posted by The Remonstrant
                  Regarding practicing "the will of my Father who is in heaven", I would take this expression to encompass the whole of Jesus' kingdom teachings on the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5-7 is addressed specifically to Jesus' disciples.
                  The term is vague. It is possible he is saying that people should only listen to teachers who live exemplary lives (e.g., the apostles). And he could be contrasting these good teachers with the false prophets (e.g., gnostics) who claimed that God's law was meaningless, and who would go to hell. However, this interpretation of "the will of God" would stray somewhat from the context of the discussion leading up until that point. The point of Jesus's warning was that the wolves were hungry, and that the fruit was toxic. The danger came from their doctrines, their public life. Switching from discussing the public ministries of these prophets, to discussing the sins of their private lives, seemingly would not advance Jesus's overall thesis. Furthermore, it deserves pointing out that legalistic prophets, with relatively exemplary private lives, could easily qualify as a hellish wolf. Before he started persecuting Jesus, Saul of Tarsus would have seemed like a pretty good guy (other than his flawed doctrine).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
                    In this case, I mean salvation as in being a follower of Jesus Christ, knowing that I have been redeemed and saved by what He has done and not what I have done. This means that I am presently saved, and am currently part of His bride and will be known as part of His bride on the final day.
                    Saved from what? Your summary is not false, but I'm trying to push your understanding a little. What are we saved or delivered from? What will we be saved or delivered from?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      Saved from what? Your summary is not false, but I'm trying to push your understanding a little. What are we saved or delivered from? What will we be saved or delivered from?
                      Saved from the natural consequences of my sin, which is death and Hell. Saved from the Righteous judgement of a Holy God on what is against Him and His very nature.

                      To answer what I believe you are asking more directly, when I believed in Christ and begin following Him, at that point I believe salvation took place. He redeemed me, I became His. That redemption will be fulfilled completely and affirmed on judgement day at the Judgement seat of Christ.
                      Last edited by TheNoviceCometh; 03-19-2014, 10:47 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
                        Saved from the natural consequences of my sin, which is death and Hell. Saved from the Righteous judgement of a Holy God on what is against Him and His very nature.
                        Isn't that future salvation? What about present salvation? What are we saved from now?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          Isn't that future salvation? What about present salvation? What are we saved from now?
                          I believe that salvation from sin begins now, it is not just future salvation. When one becomes a Christian, one enters into fellowship with the Father through the Son. So our salvation begins now. Our nature begins to change in the present. So I would say that salvation from sin and death begins now as the fruit of the Holy Spirit grow in us. One can also be saved currently from addictions and habits that bind us to the world and not to God.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
                            I believe that salvation from sin begins now, it is not just future salvation. When one becomes a Christian, one enters into fellowship with the Father through the Son. So our salvation begins now. Our nature begins to change in the present. So I would say that salvation from sin and death begins now as the fruit of the Holy Spirit grow in us. One can also be saved currently from addictions and habits that bind us to the world and not to God.

                            For me, Colossian 1:13 and Ephesians 2 are key for understanding present salvation:

                            He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love
                            And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh
                              To answer what I believe you are asking more directly, when I believed in Christ and begin following Him, at that point I believe salvation took place. He redeemed me, I became His. That redemption will be fulfilled completely and affirmed on judgement day at the Judgement seat of Christ.
                              Not sure how this works with your statement that you do not believe salvation is permanent. It would be better for you to say, "That redemption might be fulfilled completely and affirmed on judgment day."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                Not sure how this works with your statement that you do not believe salvation is permanent. It would be better for you to say, "That redemption might be fulfilled completely and affirmed on judgment day."
                                Haha. Good point there. Actually, I just believe that people can fall away. If one does not fall away, then redemption is fulfilled. Just curious, do you believe that it is possible to fall away, or once saved always saved? I'm interested in learning from others, and enjoy discussing such things. Thanks

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