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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Assurance of Salvation

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    This part implies that the dead in Christ are not really dead.

    1 Corinthians 15
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    See also these passages:

    Romans 6:11
    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    1 Corinthians 15:17-18 is where Paul corrects the misconception that those who die before the parousia will not be eligible for eternal life. It is clearly speaking about literal life/death.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #47
      He implies that those who have fallen asleep are not perished. Are you saying that in this verse, he is talking about literal sleep and physical death?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        He implies that those who have fallen asleep are not perished. Are you saying that in this verse, he is talking about literal sleep and physical death?
        No; sleep as a figurative term for literal death.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #49
          So those who have literally died (fallen asleep) have not literally died (perished)? Huh?

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          • #50
            Eternal life is not immortality, it's a mode of living:

            John 6:28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

            Israel knew that they were being groomed to be partners with God in rescuing the world. Their part was to do the right things so that this plan could be expedited.

            Neglecting obedience led to judgment, wrath and exile, as Moses had prophesied. Obedience would lead to restoration, return from exile and fulfilment.

            John 5:39You search the Scriptures because you think they give you
            eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

            It seems that all their searching led nowhere, because God's wrath continued to rest on them:

            Matthew 3:7 But when John saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he told them, "You children of serpents! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

            Luke 13:1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

            Sad, because the work that God wanted Israel to do was to obey Moses who instructed Israel to believe in the One who was a Deliverer like him sent by God.

            John 6:29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

            Those who believed in Jesus were reborn in Him:

            John 5:24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

            Question
            Is belief in Jesus:

            Recognition of Him as God's Messiah (mental assent)

            Following him in obedience

            Hint: Read Moses's command in Deuteronomy, when he tells Israel to obey the One who would be just like him, who would be sent from God.
            Last edited by footwasher; 03-22-2014, 04:36 AM.

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            • #51
              What about never dying? Is that immortality, or just a mode of living?

              John 11
              23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

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              • #52
                I could meet the most powerful, most beautiful, richest persons in the world (and I have met some who were pretty close to having those qualities) and conclude they were living the opposite of the eternal life: the futile life.

                Christ was right: the dead could bury their own dead. Unrepentant, they were just occupying space, using up the nutrients in the ground. He died to try and change that.

                John 8:24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                What about never dying? Is that immortality, or just a mode of living?

                John 11
                23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
                Last edited by footwasher; 03-22-2014, 10:45 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                  I could meet the most powerful, most beautiful, richest persons in the world (and I have met some who were pretty close to having those qualities) and conclude they were living the opposite of the eternal life: the futile life.

                  Christ was right: the dead could bury their own dead. Unrepentant, they were just occupying space, using up the nutrients in the ground. He died to try and change that.

                  John 8:24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
                  This reminds me of how Paul said that the widow who lives for pleasure is dead while she lives (1 Timothy 5:6).
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment

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