The Revelation of Jesus Christ !

[canuckaho]

Is there anyone left on earth who does not know the name of Jesus?

We must be pretty close to having all nations know the name of Jesus, what with TV and all. We also send missionaries to all the corners of the world. I think he's coming back next week, probably.

[TyRockwell]

Ah yes. So when the Bible says "soon" it means something completely unable to be understood by us. Soon can mean anywhere from one generation to X thousand years...

"Soon" can also mean, "suddenly," as in 'by surprise.'

I don't mean in a dispensational sense. We don't need to be in the dark, such as that day overtakes us unaware. 1st Thessalonians 5:4-6

[Soyeong]

Um, sounds like a repetition to me.
1 day = 1,000 years
1,000 years = 1 day

Peter says this in the context of referring to the second coming of Jesus. If the resurrection of Jesus on the third day is a foreshadowing of his second coming, then the second coming might happen in the third millennium (3 days = 3,000 years).

Actually, somewhere in the beginning of the third millennium.

2 Peter 3:8-9

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.

I never understood why people want to make 3 days mean 3000 years to God. It seems clear to me that the meaning of verse 8 is mirrored in verse 9.

[OneSizeFit]

Yes.
Even so:
Please, then explain how you get the gospel just from the name of Jesus? And then why are there false Jesus'? (2 Coriinthians 11:4). And false gospels? How does the name of Jesus give us a distisction to distinguish the genuine?

False gospel = anyone who does not preach what Jesus preached.

Jesus' gospel = God's power in healing/Kingdom of God is near (interesting someone could technically be a Christian without preaching atonement, I never thought of that)

In this case I would say Jesus' Gospel is not being preached, He is being preached instead. So you have a point.

[Brown Cat]

I would say that the most important eschatological view one can believe in is what I call the "imminence of eternity" view. IOW, do you know where you will spend eternity if you were to die today? If one kicks the bucket now, all eschatological debate for that person becomes meaningless.

[OneSizeFit]

I would say that the most important eschatological view one can believe in is what I call the "imminence of eternity" view. IOW, do you know where you will spend eternity if you were to die today? If one kicks the bucket now, all eschatological debate for that person becomes meaningless.

According to Scripture, we spend eternity sleeping in Sheol until the Kingdom of God is brought up on Earth, and the subsequent resurrection of the dead. An immediate ascent to eternity (heaven or hell) was considered heretical in the early Church, Plato's ideal of Heaven somehow replaced the physical Kingdom over the years. I'm assuming the truth would be a stumbling block in evangelizing.

[TyRockwell]

According to Scripture, we spend eternity sleeping in Sheol until the Kingdom of God is brought up on Earth, and the subsequent resurrection of the dead. An immediate ascent to eternity (heaven or hell) was considered heretical in the early Church, Plato's ideal of Heaven somehow replaced the physical Kingdom over the years. I'm assuming the truth would be a stumbling block in evangelizing.

No, the kingdom of God is present and active and growing in the earth, now. We preach the good news of the kingdom. We are a royal priesthood, kings and priests, now.

As to the departed believers, Jesus brings them with him at his return. 1st Thess. 4:14

I don't know what era of the early church you reference, but they were quickly slipping to the Judaisers, installing a priesthood hierarchy. It was the old covenant that held the faithful in Sheol. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

[OneSizeFit]

No, the kingdom of God is present and active and growing in the earth, now. We preach the good news of the kingdom. We are a royal priesthood, kings and priests, now.

One of the problems in defining the Kingdom, is that Jesus uses present and future tense. I still think we dont have a clear definition of what it is, and seeing that it was the main thrust of Jesus' Gospel, I believe the topic is sorely misunderstood and under acknowledged in sermons in the modern Church.

As to the departed believers, Jesus brings them with him at his return. 1st Thess. 4:14

"Fallen asleep in him" - so instead of resting in Sheol, believers rest in Christ? Than what is the point of the resurrection of the dead, that is for non believers only?

I don't know what era of the early church you reference, but they were quickly slipping to the Judaisers, installing a priesthood hierarchy. It was the old covenant that held the faithful in Sheol. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Irenaeus "Against the Heresies"

Some who are reckoned among the Orthodox go beond the prearranged plane for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incoruption. Thus they are entertaining heretical opinions. For the heretics not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm immediately upon their deaths they will pass above the heavens"

Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho"

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say there is no resurrection of the flesh...as in the case of the yoke of the oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone, so neither can the soul or body effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion."

Justin goes on teach that the immediate survival of the soul in heaven or hell is Platonism not Christian in nature.

Just want to add, I by no means have the answers, I just wanted to point out that the belif in an immediate heaven and hell were not orthodox beliefs early on.

[Brown Cat]

Whether you believe in "soul sleep" ( I don't) or not that is not what I was getting at. I was merely saying that the arguments for and against various eschatological viewpoints becomes meaningless for the person who has died, at which point their eternal destiny has been settled forever. For me it's better to establish now one's place in heaven rather than to argue how or when we are going to get there.

[OneSizeFit]

Well in that case why even join a message board and discuss anything religion related.

[OneSizeFit]

Whether you believe in "soul sleep" ( I don't) or not that is not what I was getting at.

Unfortunately your opinion is sorely lacking Scriptural basis. There any many more points pointing to soul sleep, and the eventual resurrection of the dead for the coming Kingdom of God, than a heaven. Sure there are one to three verses in the NT pointing to an immediate heaven, but many more pointing to a sleep, including even the first martyr, Stephen's death. After Stephen was martyred, “he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60).


Those who have died are dead. They lie unconscious, asleep in their graves, from the OT all the way through to revelations this is the case, the dead are awaiting the resurrection (see Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; John 5:28, 29; 6:39, 40, 44, 54: 11:11-14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17). Another reason why it is so ridiculous to pray to saints.

I would prefer to believe in an immediate heaven as well, but based on scripture the views seems more like wishful thinking.

God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

1 Timothy 6: 15-16

[Brown Cat]

I'm here mostly to read and learn, which is another good reason to join a message board such as this. I really don't post that often for that reason. It just seemed to me that your comments on soul sleep were off topic. You may want to start a new thread on that subject.

[OneSizeFit]

I'm here mostly to read and learn, which is another good reason to join a message board such as this. I really don't post that often for that reason. It just seemed to me that your comments on soul sleep were off topic. You may want to start a new thread on that subject.

I hear ya, but the OP seems long gone, and not much is going on round here. I would start a new thread but I really agree with you in the end, really, really, when it comes down to it, no one knows whats gonna happen till its that time.

But soul sleep is not such a bad thing, we wont know the difference.

[TyRockwell]

One of the problems in defining the Kingdom, is that Jesus uses present and future tense. I still think we dont have a clear definition of what it is, and seeing that it was the main thrust of Jesus' Gospel, I believe the topic is sorely misunderstood and under acknowledged in sermons in the modern Church.

The kingdom was present in Jesus, continuing into the future, uninterrupted, through believers.

"Fallen asleep in him" - so instead of resting in Sheol, believers rest in Christ? Than what is the point of the resurrection of the dead, that is for non believers only?

Believers are alive in Christ, even if their bodies are dead. Non believers rise separately for judgment.

Irenaeus "Against the Heresies"

Some who are re
ckoned among the Orthodox go beond the prearranged plane for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incoruption. Thus they are entertaining heretical opinions. For the heretics not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm immediately upon their deaths they will pass above the heavens"

Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho"

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say there is no resurrection of the flesh...as in the case of the yoke of the
oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone, so neither can the soul or body effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion."

Justin goes on teach that the immediate survival of the soul in heaven or hell is Platonism not Christian in nature.

Just want to add, I by no means have the answers, I just wanted to point out that the belif in an immediate heaven and hell were not orthodox beliefs early on.

They were orthodox beliefs according to Paul. The early church 'fathers' were heretics all by themselves. They contradict Jesus and Paul by saying the soul cannot live without the body.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2 Tim 3:13 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Tim 4:1-2 (KJV)

[OneSizeFit]

The kingdom was present in Jesus, continuing into the future, uninterrupted, through believers.

The true requirements for the Kingdom have not been met, I like your interpretation it's comforting, but I don't know if I agree (we might as well say the Catholic Church is the Kingdom).

I think we are still waiting for the true Kingdom. I can pull up a ton of verses which more or less list all the requirements of the Kingdom as the Gospel explained it, we are definitely not living in the Kingdom.

Believers are alive in Christ, even if their bodies are dead.

I'm down with that. Sleeping in Christ.

They were orthodox beliefs according to Paul. The early church 'fathers' were heretics all by themselves. They contradict Jesus and Paul by saying the soul cannot live without the body.

I'm willing to accept that the early "known" fathers were more or less heretics (they all came from schools of rhetoric, but they are also responsible for the Trinity, so can we pick and choose so freely?) - but isnt it implicit in all the verses I cited that the very point of Jesus Gospel, was not so much an eternal life, but an eternal life after a bodily resurrection and a renewed earth? We can either scrap all the revelations of the end times and resurrection as pure allegory, or we can take it literally, it seems like the modern church is teetering between the two.