Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

[Bowman]

There is no W in the Hebrew language.

Yes, there is.

Plus your references are all from Christianity. Nothing to do with G-d, Judaism, or the Hebrew language.

Wrong.

The references emanate from a wide range of authorities, not just Christians.

Not that you could ever refute the definition already provided, that is...

[Bowman]

Of course, by that logic, God is a cloud as much as a man. Exodus 19:9

Best learn some Hebrew before making merit-less assertions.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Yes, there is.

Odd that no native Hebrew speaker that I know was aware of this. What is the name of the Hebrew letter that has a W sound?

[Nick Ginex]

Mr. Bowman, if I may support Jo, she is absolutely correct that the Trinity was not spoken about in the Bible. It is man-made dogma to fuse Jesus, a Man of God, with God, the creator of all there is, and God's Holy Spirit. The Church characterizes the Trinity as three persons in one. This is convoluted thinking because God came first. How else could Jesus be God's son then by being created by God just as the Egyptian God Atum created other gods to represent the earth, heaven, water, and the air we breathe.

What the Church has done is create a polytheistic form of God by saying God consists of three persons: the Father , the Son, and Holy Spirit. This is an attempt to fuse Jesus with God and it is only in the Gospel of John that the Church finds a way to rationalize this concept. In the four Gospels, Jesus said he was the Son of Man 76 times. It was only in the Gospel of John that Jesus explicitely states 5 times he is the Son of God.

Mr. Bowman, you are intelligent enough to know that John opened his Gospel on a majestic note by saying in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Church grabed these lines to then hypothesize that the Word is Jesus. But this is miscontruing what John wrote because in the beginning there was God who later created His son. Anybody with common sense knows that in the beginning, when God created all of the galaxies, stars, and planets, it was not until He created Heaven, Earth, and Man that His son was needed to spread the Word of God. Jesus stated the Word 3 times in the Gospel of John. It is the greatest command given to mankind.

Those who can only believe in Jesus if he is a God are not followers of Jesus. I, for one, believe in Jesus and his teachings whether or not he is a God. Why? Because Jesus was a Man of God who gave us God's last command - love one another.

[Nick Ginex]

Of course you realize that Christianity is an extension of the OT written by Jewish Holy Men.

[OneSizeFit]

Christians will never understand that God as revealed in the Tanakh is savior enough, and that the Torah is the promise of love & salvation for the Jew, the same love & salvation that the Gentiles find in the man Jesus. One finds salvation in a man, the other find salvation in a book, but ultimately god is all there is. Both lead in the right direction.

[jo7241974]

I wouldn't say that "the sole intention" of any of those groups is to deny Jesus' deity. In the case of Mormonism in particular, several components help explain its origins:

1) Unitarianism was in vogue in Britain and the US during the 18th and early 19th centuries, as a prelude to the outright agnosticism of the late 19th century and the atheism of the 20th century.

2) In the wake of the Great Awakening, the early 19th century was also a time of religious diversification in America. The Mormons date from that time, during which there was also a major end-times scare that fizzled out in 1844. There was much openness to a man who claimed a novel message from God.

3) Mormonism was originally a sex cult. The whole point was to justify the multiple "marriages" that Joseph Smith sought with the wives and children of his followers and neighbors. It's a scenario that's repeated many times in world history, always with an explosive conclusion. Usually, after things explode, the survivors re-integrate into the dominant culture. This time, however, the cultists had an "out" in the form of the American frontier. Instead of re-integrating, they fled to Utah and established a kingdom. There are never going to be enough women to sustain a polygamist cult indefinitely, barring wars to kill the excess young bachelors, and under the rigors of frontier life Mormonism ultimately dropped the polygamy but kept the unitarianism and the emphasis on ongoing divine revelation which allowed it to unmoor itself from the Bible whenever Scripture became inconvenient.

It is amazing how man rationalizes things he does not understand. God is a major victim of man's rationalizations. God's works and purposes also find their way into man's desire to show his cleverness and intellect by making claims about who and what God may or may not be. In your above dissertation, you have neglected to mention the cause of where thoughts about God came into being in "vogue", or where the outright agnosticism stemmed. One does not need to look further than the Reformation. Then, in order to identify the cause for the Reformation, one does not need to look further than the corruption of the Catholic church. From there, it is only a matter of reviewing the councils of Nicea, which stem originally from man's desire to determine what was "orthodox" belief and what was not "orthodox" belief.

If you are to have any credibility in making such authoritative claims about the LDS Church, you should also be able to make similar authoritative claims about Christendom in general. Find the yard stick by which you can compare ALL of the problems which exist in Christendom, and then honestly apply your standard to all the beliefs held by all denominations and followers of Christ, including your own. Explain why thousands of differing beliefs are held to. Let us see how they hold up. I prophesy that, unless you disgard what man has had to say, what man has created to make determinations, you will not be able to do it. For God does not bend to the wishes and desire of what man sees Him as. Rather, God sent His Son to become our Savior and Redeemer, then He sent the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to guide and direct us to All Truth. Unfortunately, man has tried to force his own words upon all three; thus making it impossible for man to hear the same message from the Holy Spirit because man's rationalizations get in the way. And so whatever Truth He teaches is mixed up with all of the garbage man has put in His way.

God's Wisdom is much more than we can comprehend. He understood what man would do even before the foundation of our world. Jesus gave us the two great commandments which are meant to assist us in traversing the land minds which man has created for himself. These commandments are not difficult if we seek God's help. His help is here - the Holy Spirit will guide and direct us to ALL Truth. Unless we are striving to keep those two great commandments, He is going to be limited in what knowledge He can reveal to us about the Kingdom of God. I do not see much evidence of Christ-like love on these forums. I see man blinded by his own self-love, which is not the love Christ was talking about. Worse, I see man wielding swords of hate and dissension and discord; and they actually claim they are doing it in the very name of our Beloved Savior by claiming Christ told them to behave this way.

I would offer that we remember how not many Jews would convert to Christ, even though they never stopped believing in the God of Abraham. Christ's coming was not for the purpose of replacing their belief in the God of Abraham, it was for the purpose of fulfilling what had been taught by the God of Abraham. Now look at the Jews who DID convert to Christ and see how surprised they were to discover that their exclusive property, the God of Abraham who had finally come in the flesh to redeem them, was now also offering the same salvation to the Gentiles. And now, see how the Gentlies are doing the same thing; patterns repeating themselves. They have made God and the salvation He offers, exclusively theirs in accordance with their own man-made yard stick.

What man has forgotten is that God does NOT belong to man; rather man belongs to God. Since we cannot know the thoughts and mind of God, it seems pretty presumptuous for man to strutt around claiming to have God all figured out. In so doing, they not only usurp God's very authority by judging who they think is saved, they also deny Jesus' very teaching that He had NOT taught everything and that it was the Holy Spirit who will lead to All Truth. In so doing, you are breaking God's commandments, and have turned Jesus' words into lies And for what? So that you can hold to the precepts of man, to whom you give greater power than the very teachings of Christ. You worship and cling to the idol of what is "orthodox", who, by the way, forbids you to seek the Truth offered by the Holy Spirit. Because anything NOT in agreement with orthodox belief you are fearful of because it is orthodoxy who has taught you to be afraid and has gone so far as to judge you eternally damned should you stray from their commandments of men.

So be it.

jo

[jo7241974]

[QUOTE]

Thank you Jo for your response.

You have not told me what the Word of God is. God had His surrogate, Jesus, announce it three times in the Gospel of John.

Jesus is the Son of God - not just some surrogate. There are many things Jesus claims in the Gospel of John. He is the Good Shepherd, He is the Light, He is "I Am", I found seven places where He refers to Himself as the Son of Man, He also claims to be the Son of God, and He claims I am the vine.

Do not consider yourself incapable of reading and understanding the Bible. It has many wonderful moral teachings, but it also has its myths and inconsistencies. As an inspired Holy Book, God has presented it so that people can easily understand it. To say it is a mystery in some parts is an excuse for futher misinterpretation and convoluted thinking.

I do not consider myself incapable of reading and understanding the Bible. However, I DO recognize that I am still blind to those things pertaining to the Kingdom of God which have not yet been revealed to me. There is not only milk in the Bible, there is also meat there; and depending upon what I am prepared to receive, that is what I will receive. Indeed, there are layers and layers of understanding to be had. Jesus Himself taught in parables for a purpose. Whenever He says "he that has ears, let him hear", He is referring to the capability and preparedness of people to understand His teachings. Where one person thinks is a very plain and easy thing to comprehend, to another it is completely unseen or misunderstood. I think that the misinterpretations and convoluted thinking come from the minds of men. Rather than learning to discern the influence of the Holy Spirit, they are influenced by what man has taught them.

Read the Bible, especially the words of Jesus. All other portions of the Bible are second-hand and are beliefs and thoughts of men that give their own impressions, which are not from God or His Holy Spirit.

This would take another thread to discuss, as I do not agree with everything you have said here.

best regards,

jo

[RBerman]

It is amazing how man rationalizes things he does not understand. God is a major victim of man's rationalizations. God's works and purposes also find their way into man's desire to show his cleverness and intellect by making claims about who and what God may or may not be. In your above dissertation, you have neglected to mention the cause of where thoughts about God came into being in "vogue", or where the outright agnosticism stemmed. One does not need to look further than the Reformation. Then, in order to identify the cause for the Reformation, one does not need to look further than the corruption of the Catholic church. From there, it is only a matter of reviewing the councils of Nicea, which stem originally from man's desire to determine what was "orthodox" belief and what was not "orthodox" belief.

"Orthodox" just means "true teaching." So yes, men do indeed want to know what's true and what's not true. Your post shows that you have this same desire, to know the truth. Yes?

If you are to have any credibility in making such authoritative claims about the LDS Church, you should also be able to make similar authoritative claims about Christendom in general. Find the yard stick by which you can compare ALL of the problems which exist in Christendom, and then honestly apply your standard to all the beliefs held by all denominations and followers of Christ, including your own. Explain why thousands of differing beliefs are held to. Let us see how they hold up. I prophesy that, unless you disgard what man has had to say, what man has created to make determinations, you will not be able to do it. For God does not bend to the wishes and desire of what man sees Him as. Rather, God sent His Son to become our Savior and Redeemer, then He sent the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to guide and direct us to All Truth. Unfortunately, man has tried to force his own words upon all three; thus making it impossible for man to hear the same message from the Holy Spirit because man's rationalizations get in the way. And so whatever Truth He teaches is mixed up with all of the garbage man has put in His way.

That is so true. Men are fallible. Pick any man of God, and if you look at his life for a few minutes, you'll find things done wrong, things said wrong. That's why God gave us the Bible, as an eternal standard of truth by which we can judge the words of men. So when any man-- any man! -- arises and declares a new "message from God," that message must, must, must be compared to God's Word to see if it is true.

God's Wisdom is much more than we can comprehend. He understood what man would do even before the foundation of our world. Jesus gave us the two great commandments which are meant to assist us in traversing the land minds which man has created for himself. These commandments are not difficult if we seek God's help. His help is here - the Holy Spirit will guide and direct us to ALL Truth. Unless we are striving to keep those two great commandments, He is going to be limited in what knowledge He can reveal to us about the Kingdom of God. I do not see much evidence of Christ-like love on these forums. I see man blinded by his own self-love, which is not the love Christ was talking about. Worse, I see man wielding swords of hate and dissension and discord; and they actually claim they are doing it in the very name of our Beloved Savior by claiming Christ told them to behave this way.

The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth, through the study of Scripture. That's why the Bereans were not afraid to compare even the words of the Apostle Paul to Scripture. That's why Apollos and Philip and Peter and Paul all taught about Jesus from the Scriptures. That's why Paul instructed the Galatians to beware any message that denied the gospel, even if it seemed to be an angel bringing the new message! (Galatians 1:8)

I would offer that we remember how not many Jews would convert to Christ, even though they never stopped believing in the God of Abraham. Christ's coming was not for the purpose of replacing their belief in the God of Abraham, it was for the purpose of fulfilling what had been taught by the God of Abraham. Now look at the Jews who DID convert to Christ and see how surprised they were to discover that their exclusive property, the God of Abraham who had finally come in the flesh to redeem them, was now also offering the same salvation to the Gentiles. And now, see how the Gentlies are doing the same thing; patterns repeating themselves. They have made God and the salvation He offers, exclusively theirs in accordance with their own man-made yard stick.

We must certainly be on guard against those who make up their own religion, claiming a special, secret message from God that goes against God's Word.

What man has forgotten is that God does NOT belong to man; rather man belongs to God. Since we cannot know the thoughts and mind of God, it seems pretty presumptuous for man to strutt around claiming to have God all figured out. In so doing, they not only usurp God's very authority by judging who they think is saved, they also deny Jesus' very teaching that He had NOT taught everything and that it was the Holy Spirit who will lead to All Truth. In so doing, you are breaking God's commandments, and have turned Jesus' words into lies And for what? So that you can hold to the precepts of man, to whom you give greater power than the very teachings of Christ. You worship and cling to the idol of what is "orthodox", who, by the way, forbids you to seek the Truth offered by the Holy Spirit. Because anything NOT in agreement with orthodox belief you are fearful of because it is orthodoxy who has taught you to be afraid and has gone so far as to judge you eternally damned should you stray from their commandments of men.

Jesus was not teaching that the Holy Spirit would teach things that deny the Scriptures, though. Quite the opposite; he was teaching that the Holy Spirit would enable men to understand the Scriptures, because the spirits of men are weak and prone to go astray. You continue to use "orthodoxy" as a negative word, when really you're just promoting a different set of truths as "orthodoxy" based on the teachings of a man who claimed that the Bible was not as sufficient for life and godliness as it says it is (2 Timothy 3:16).

But I don't think you're afraid, Jo. That would be unkind of me to assume that you have bad motives. I just think you're mistaken.

[franktalk]

The top commandment is to love God. To do so requires us to worship Him. It is this separation between God and us that defines the relationship. We are the pot and He is the potter. Then the pot gives the potter all of the respect that He is due. He is our Father and we are His children.

How many times have we witnessed young children rebelling against their parents and even becoming tyrants over their parents. If a child has weak parents or absent parents the child can become a monster. So to with man. Since God has given us free agency and not outwardly interfered with man over the last two thousand years man has become the rebellious child. Man has placed demands on God and has turned his heart away from his parents. The rebellious child assumes the authority of the parent and becomes the monster. Of course the monster does not see this. The monster instead sees his role as the appropriate holder of authority and his personal desires reign supreme. He becomes the king of his kingdom. But he is no king and he has no kingdom. It is all smoke and mirrors. The true King can at any time crush the child. So it is true that man who has declared himself king on earth and acts with the authority of God has deceived himself. One day God will appoint Kings on earth but they will be the least on earth today. For those who think them self kings they will be the King's servant. Even those who abuse scripture can plainly see this message in scripture. But of course they assume it refers to another and not them. It must refer to another because they are a king on earth.

So scripture warns us not to overstep who we are. We all fail in some regard and stumble. But if we remember that we are the pot and not the potter we can right ourself and not be dashed to pieces.

So the measure of any religion is how that religion treats the humble man and how they treat a man who takes on the role of a god. Since religious institutions are of man then none will be perfect. So we look to what their doctrine is to see how they view the ideal man. If that ideal is appropriate then the religion is of God. If however the doctrine supports the role of man taking the authority of God then that religion is of Satan.

[franktalk]

"Orthodox" just means "true teaching." So yes, men do indeed want to know what's true and what's not true. Your post shows that you have this same desire, to know the truth. Yes?

So under this umbrella you support burning at the stake? So under this umbrella you support condemning people to hell? And do you support the historical abuses under this umbrella? Don't wrap the word truth around what has been done in its name.

[RBerman]

So under this umbrella you support burning at the stake? So under this umbrella you support condemning people to hell? And do you support the historical abuses under this umbrella? Don't wrap the word truth around what has been done in its name.

I don't know how you got that out of my post. My point was that Jo uses "orthodox" as a pejorative, when really it just means "truth," and she's not really opposed to truth. She's opposed to certain teachings which she believes are untrue, which puts her in the same boat as everyone else.

As far as your specific questions: No, I don't support abuses, by definition. Only God condemns people to Hell, because only God is the Judge of all things. Christians proclaim what God has revealed concerning his judgments. As far as whether burning at the stake is ever an acceptable form of capital punishment, I can't think of a situation in which I would consider it necessary, especially since the advent of the noose and the guillotine, which replaced burning as a means of public execution.

[franktalk]

I don't know how you got that out of my post. My point was that Jo uses "orthodox" as a pejorative, when really it just means "truth," and she's not really opposed to truth. She's opposed to certain teachings which she believes are untrue, which puts her in the same boat as everyone else.

As far as your specific questions: No, I don't support abuses, by definition. Only God condemns people to Hell, because only God is the Judge of all things. Christians proclaim what God has revealed concerning his judgments. As far as whether burning at the stake is ever an acceptable form of capital punishment, I can't think of a situation in which I would consider it necessary, especially since the advent of the noose and the guillotine, which replaced burning as a means of public execution.

So you support the more humane forms of death like the noose and the guillotine. How utterly modern of you.

You can't use a definition of a word to cover for a group defined by that word. You sound like some liberal wanting to define words so they can hide their agenda. If the fallen church does not follow the teachings of Christ and they define themselves as orthodox then they have used the word not as defined but used it as a label or name for themselves. Your attempt at diversion is small and weak.

So tell me when did the orthodox church come into existence? And all of the acts committed by the church are they to be sifted like chaff from grain? Is there no price to pay?

The Muslim religion has a long history of wars as do the Christians. And in who's name were these wars fought? The warriors in the Muslim faith are bold and proclaim their god as they act out violence. But what is worse killing the flesh or condemning someone to hell. Scripture tells us not to fear someone who can kill the flesh but to fear someone who can condemn the soul. And since man can't condemn the soul then we are to fear God. But what of those men who think they can judge a man's soul? Should they fear God?

[jo7241974]

RBerman;3171281]"Orthodox" just means "true teaching." So yes, men do indeed want to know what's true and what's not true. Your post shows that you have this same desire, to know the truth. Yes?

I would say that most men do seek truth. God sent the Holy Spirit to help man in his searching. However, man, from the ancient church forward, has tried to quantify what the truths were that were being taught. For man to have made the decision as to what the "true" teachings were in the first place, meant that what other men thought was also true, got thrown out. Today, man either believes that there was no other truth being considered when "orthodox" was stamped next to a particular interpretation of what man thought was the truth, or through the teachings of orthodoxy (how convenient...), all other interpretations simply weren't the true ones. Thus, the entire premise of what today is considered "orthodox" is built upon a false premise. For one to observe the history of Christianity and pretend that the issue of what was orthodox and what was not had the effect of solidifying what is Truth, is to deny the cause of all of the strife within the church. It even exists today being masqued as "essential" versus "non-essential"; yet the fighting within the church is just as fierce. As for those who dare to disagree with orthodox beliefs, today it is not politically correct within "civilized" countries to actually take their lives. All of this, the infighting and the usurping of Judgment, are not manifestations of Truth; they are manifestations of the adversary!! It is still orthodoxy today who declares any who disagree with them as eternally damned; thus stealing Judgment from God's hands. To deny it is to deny your very own belief system. This knowledge should make you extremely uncomfortable. Waving your hands about with excuses in trying to deny it will not cover it up or make it go away.

That is so true. Men are fallible. Pick any man of God, and if you look at his life for a few minutes, you'll find things done wrong, things said wrong. That's why God gave us the Bible, as an eternal standard of truth by which we can judge the words of men. So when any man-- any man! -- arises and declares a new "message from God," that message must, must, must be compared to God's Word to see if it is true.

But you still, still, still, compare it with man's definition of what is orthodox and throw sincere one-on-one personal spirit with Holy Spirit guidance to the wind. Your view of what you are allowed to be taught by the Holy Spirit is tainted by man's opinions and rules and legacy of violence in upholding their own interpretations. And satan rejoices in it.

The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth, through the study of Scripture. That's why the Bereans were not afraid to compare even the words of the Apostle Paul to Scripture. That's why Apollos and Philip and Peter and Paul all taught about Jesus from the Scriptures. That's why Paul instructed the Galatians to beware any message that denied the gospel, even if it seemed to be an angel bringing the new message! (Galatians 1:8)

The Holy Spirit does not only guide us into understanding the truth that is presented through the study of Scripture. Even Jesus teaches He had not taught everything because we were not yet ready to bear it. And these words He spoke to His own Apostles whom He had privately taught for at least 40 days. That is quite a statement for Him to make - that even He, the Son of God, after 40 days of intense private teaching, had not taught His Apostles everything because they were STILL not ready to bear it. Just think! Three of them, Peter, James and John, had witnessed His Transfiguration and had heard Father speak. Even hearing Father speak, and having Jesus in the flesh teaching them privately for 40 days was still not long enough for them to even be able to bear anymore teaching. Also, through this teaching, it is quite plain to see that Scripture DOES NOT HOLD ALL OF THE TRUTH. So for you to say that the Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth, through the study of Scripture, is making Jesus' words a lie. Jesus told us that NOT all the Truth had yet been revealed by Him. Obviously, therefore, what the Apostles wrote as scripture does not contain all of the Truth. IOW, there is more truth to be had than what is written in scripture. Even John records this very same truth in Revelation. He was forbidden to record what he learned of the seven thunders. So, at the very least, we know that the Truth about the seven thunders has NOT been written in scripture. We also have the scripture which tells us this:

John 21:25 KJV

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Now, remember, that whatever books that would have been written that DID contain all those things, they STILL would not have included the things Jesus had NOT taught them because they were yet unable to bear them!!!!

Indeed, John also recorded in Revelation:

Revelation 10:11 KJV

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Have you seen John's additional prophesies to many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings???

So, I ask you, how can the Holy Spirit lead to ALL Truth through the study of the scriptures, if the scriptures do not hold ALL Truth????

We must certainly be on guard against those who make up their own religion, claiming a special, secret message from God that goes against God's Word.

Jesus was not teaching that the Holy Spirit would teach things that deny the Scriptures, though. Quite the opposite; he was teaching that the Holy Spirit would enable men to understand the Scriptures, because the spirits of men are weak and prone to go astray. You continue to use "orthodoxy" as a negative word, when really you're just promoting a different set of truths as "orthodoxy" based on the teachings of a man who claimed that the Bible was not as sufficient for life and godliness as it says it is (2 Timothy 3:16).

But I don't think you're afraid, Jo. That would be unkind of me to assume that you have bad motives. I just think you're mistaken.

I don't need to resort to trying to find a passage in the Bible to support the restrictions which orthodox beliefs have placed upon what man believes is or is not true. I place my trust in the very Comforter, the Holy Spirit to guide and direct me to ALL Truth; whether He is opening my mind to the Kingdom of God through a greater understanding of the Truth which IS in the Bible, or whether it is beyond the incomplete Truth which is in the Bible.

jo

[Bowman]

Odd that no native Hebrew speaker that I know was aware of this. What is the name of the Hebrew letter that has a W sound?

Vocalization of the sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet varies, brother. As such, this is where the “w” sounds emanates from…