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February 23rd 2011, 12:26 PM #226
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Female - ChristianRe: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
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The following tWebber says Amen to princesa for this useful Post:
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February 23rd 2011, 08:30 PM #227
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Dear Mr. Bowman, it is unfortunately clear that you have a mind trapped in a cage of religious dogma. This is too bad because you deprive yourself of the opportunity to learn about the past and gain greater perception of the future.
You exhibit the arrogance and pride of religious followers who sincerely believe they have the only true path to God. Your statement below defines you as a man who will cause bigotry, hate, and violence to defend your beliefs instead of following the words of Jesus Christ who proclaimed to all people - love one another.
I will pray for you,
Nicholas P. Ginex, a Man of God
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February 23rd 2011, 09:01 PM #228
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Mr. Bowman, If you believe the Word means the creation of all there is you are not a man with reason. You must realize that God does not need to say any word to create all there is. God created all there is and that is all you need to know. Any fool knows that God created a Son within the womb of the Virgin Mary. To say Jesus was born before Mary gave birth is a contradiction and violates the O.T. because it does not mention any Word or any Son of God. You are misinterpreting a Gospel that was written many centuries after the O.T. to force the idea of a man-made doctrine called the Trinity. None of the Gospels refer to a Trinity.
You are saying that God and His Son existed together at the same time but this is foolishness when God, the Father, had to come first.
By definition, a Son means one that follows the Father. Please get your head straight. You would believe anything taught to you because you are definitely a follower, a slave to others who easily can rule your mind.
If you desire to say Jesus is the Word that's fine. But that is saying who the Word is. You need to reflect and think about WHAT is the Word? If you truly believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, who has a Father God, then you will accept the Word given by Jesus is what he stated 3 times in the Gospel of John. The Word, if given by the Father or by His Son does not matter, the word is - Love one Another. This was the last command given by Jesus, who represented his Father, the God of all there is.
Do not go around in circles about the Word. If you want to believe in the Trinity, Fine. But What is the Word not Who is the Word should be ingrained in every thought and every action of your life.
Nicholas P. Ginex
A Man of God
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February 23rd 2011, 11:55 PM #229
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Why don't you show us scripturally, nick.
Again...show us scripturally....Any fool knows that God created a Son within the womb of the Virgin Mary. To say Jesus was born before Mary gave birth is a contradiction and violates the O.T. because it does not mention any Word or any Son of God. You are misinterpreting a Gospel that was written many centuries after the O.T. to force the idea of a man-made doctrine called the Trinity
They all do, nick...however you have not bothered to study them....now have you....None of the Gospels refer to a Trinity.
You don't understand the Trinity, brother.You are saying that God and His Son existed together at the same time but this is foolishness when God, the Father, had to come first.
Who's definition?By definition, a Son means one that follows the Father. Please get your head straight. You would believe anything taught to you because you are definitely a follower, a slave to others who easily can rule your mind.
You can't even reference scripture to support your 'argument, nick.If you desire to say Jesus is the Word that's fine. But that is saying who the Word is. You need to reflect and think about WHAT is the Word? If you truly believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, who has a Father God, then you will accept the Word given by Jesus is what he stated 3 times in the Gospel of John. The Word, if given by the Father or by His Son does not matter, the word is - Love one Another. This was the last command given by Jesus, who represented his Father, the God of all there is.
Do not go around in circles about the Word. If you want to believe in the Trinity, Fine. But What is the Word not Who is the Word should be ingrained in every thought and every action of your life.
Nicholas P. Ginex
A Man of God
Even in your book, you take googled dictionary definitions over that of classic Hebrew and Greek lexicons.
You have.........nothing...
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February 24th 2011, 12:26 AM #230
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Micah 6:6. With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High G-d? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? 7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8. He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your G-d.
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February 24th 2011, 01:13 AM #231
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
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February 26th 2011, 12:01 AM #232
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Mr. Bowman you replied, Who's Defintion? It is simple logic that the Son is derived from the Father. Do you have another way of defining how the Son exists without first being created by the Father? To say the Son existed before the Father, or the Son existed with the Father, or the Son is the Father existed at the same time are all miscontrued ideas of the mind. This convoluted thinking that has caused honest, loving, and discerning people to suspect that the Church Fathers would say anything to construct a man-made doctrine. the Trinity, that establishes Jesus as not only the Son of God, but is God. It is not good to lie and cheat followers about the beginning of God.
In answer to WHAT is the WORD of God, you said Jesus. You are correct if you mean WHO is the WORD of God. But you fail to acknowledge WHAT is the WORD of God. I have provided the references for you already so that now I expect for you to look it up in the Gospel of John. You will carefully read John's Gospel and find that Jesus stated the last command given to the world three times - LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
Mr. Bowman, you are using the Bible as the only frame of reference for your thinking mind. You neglect and ignore all other information, even when there are facts established and verified. Such as, you deny that Amen existed as the greatest Egyptian God for over 2,000 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. You also deny what Jesus himself has proclaimed to those that hath an ear that Amen is,
the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Amen was truly the beginning of the creation of God because the Egyptian Priesthood of Amon wrote scripture before the Bible was ever written proclaiming Amon As the Sole God. For you to deny the words of Jesus is to say you do not believe in neither the WORD of Jesus nor his announcement that Amen is the beginning of the creation of God.
It would benefit you a great deal to read Future of God Amen because it presents a factual history that proves that what Jesus said about the God Amen is true.
But of course, you have no interest in learning about the past history of mankind. Too bad, for you deprive youself of knowledge in learning how man first conceived one-universal God.
You can obtain an overview of the book, Future of God Amen, by simply putting the title into an Internet search.
Mr. Bowman, read history and learn something in your life. Do not be afraid to absorb Knowledge. For it is with knowledge that we learn more about ourselves and have a greater understanding of God.
Nicholas P. Ginex
A Man of God
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February 27th 2011, 05:42 PM #233
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
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March 2nd 2011, 05:08 PM #234
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Brother Bowman, you posted a lot of what I wrote but was unable to debate or counter the quote you posted. Are you stymied in creating supporting thought to defend your views? It seems all you can do is throw stones at a book you have not even read. You will benefit by reading Future of God Amen because it reveals how man first came to conceive one-universal God. That God was Amen and it was Jesus Christ that validated Amen as being "the beginning of the creation of God" in Revelation 3:14.
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March 2nd 2011, 05:46 PM #235
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Brother Nick,
Your book does its absolute best to ignore the original languages, and instead, go with modern definitions from googled encyclopedias.
We have already been through this before, but let's give it a go again...
You want to use Rev 3.14 as a ceterpiece for your argument...thus, it is imperative that you defend what it states in the original Greek.
Are you now ready to defend and discuss Rev 3.14 down to the lexical and grammatical level...or, the more likely repeat scenario - are you merely going to ignore this challenge and pretend no rebut was given...?
Your call.
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March 2nd 2011, 08:47 PM #236
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Dear Brother Bowman, I am always open to learn from others. Your information is quite valuable because I constantly search for the Truth. Yes, I would be most interested in your Greek version of what Jesus Christ meant when he proclaimed Amen was, "the beginning of the creation of God."
It is distrubing to learn that the King James version of the Bible is corrupt or different from the Greek Bible.
Please provide substantiated information for review. Unfortunately, there are errors in the Bible that may be referred to as myths or lies. That is why I am very careful about what I retain from the Bible as Truth. For example, we all know that the Bible states that it was God's Flood that killed every human being but only Noah and his family survived. But this is clearly in error, or a lie, because the Egyptian civilization existed before and after God's Flood.
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March 2nd 2011, 10:35 PM #237
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Micah 6:6. With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High G-d? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? 7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8. He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your G-d.
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March 3rd 2011, 01:46 AM #238
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou
Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:
This Biblical verse destroys your argument on two accounts:
First, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), the singular, genitive creation, and the singular, genitive God.
Jesus is God.
All things came into being through Jesus.
Secondly, Jesus as the amēn (i.e. Truth both in Greek & Hebrew) that is making these claims.
From what manuscripts was the KJV derived, nick?It is distrubing to learn that the King James version of the Bible is corrupt or different from the Greek Bible.
You don't even know...nor can you even come close to defending another person's rendering - even though you are incapable of your own.
Please provide substantiated information for review.
Your turn.
How convenient, nick.Unfortunately, there are errors in the Bible that may be referred to as myths or lies. That is why I am very careful about what I retain from the Bible as Truth.
So...is it safe to assume that Rev 3.14 is not a 'lie or myth' since you obviously want to use it for the centerpiece of your argument...?
Further, you want to ignore the Greek, and instead, look for an English rendering that fits your paradigm.
File 13.
Still stuck on Bishop Ussher, brother?For example, we all know that the Bible states that it was God's Flood that killed every human being but only Noah and his family survived. But this is clearly in error, or a lie, because the Egyptian civilization existed before and after God's Flood.
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March 5th 2011, 05:03 PM #239
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Your website says:
I sincerely do not want to dissuade you from your beliefs in the God you now worship, but to help you appreciate why you do accept your God and that He is the same God worshipped in Temples, Churches, and Mosques.
So, in your belief Moslems worship the same God as Christians? Now, Thomas confessed Jesus as his Lord and his God at John 20:28-29 and so do Christians today. Do Muslims worship Jesus?
You also say that "Our world is presently confused with how we perceive God," does that include you? Are you confused about how to percieve God? Were the Egyptians confused as well? Is there any written source on earth that contains no confusion of this sort? If so, name it for us!
Is there any ancient Egyptian writing that you consider to contain the truth about God? If so, name it please.
I am sure you know that words can have more than one meaning, right? So what is it that causes you to think that Jesus was referring to an Egyptian God in Revelation 3:14 and not using the word another way? Are you saying that the word "Amen" can only mean this Egyptian god and cannot mean anything else? Also, words evovle in meaning over time. The word "gay" used to simply mean "merry" or "happy," now it means "homosexual." Even if the Egyptians worshipped a god named Amen, this does not prove that is how Jesus used the word in Rev 3:14. Contextually, he wasn't even talking about Egypt, was he?
You claim that "The Egyptian Priesthood were first to develop the concept of a soul, an eternal hereafter upon living a life of truth and reghteousness, a belief in God, and a Son of God." By what process are the writings of Egypt dated? And why should we trust this process? What documentation can you provid what thee to show that they were the first to have these concepts?
Revelation 3:14 tells us that the Amen is "the faith witness;" chapter 1 verse 5 tells us it is Jesus Christ who is "faithful witness," hence, the Amen of Rev 3:14 is Jesus himself, not some Egyptian diety! This is how the book of Revelation was using the term. When someone says, "amen to that," they simply mean, "so be it," or "truely." You have to look, not at what the word originally meant, but how it is being used at the time. People in general use words without even a care or knowledge of their original meaning.
Please note what the wikioedia says on Amen:
EtymologyAmen, meaning "so be it", is of Hebrew origin.[5][6] The word was imported into the Greek of the early Church from Judaism.[1][7] From Greek, amen entered the other Western languages. According to a standard dictionary etymology, amen passed from Greek into Late Latin, and thence into English.[8]
The Hebrew word amen derives from the Hebrew verb ʼāmán, a primitive root.[9] Grammarians frequently list ʼāmán under its three consonants (aleph-mem-nun), which are identical to those of ʼāmēn (note that the Hebrew letter א aleph originally represented a glottal stop sound, which functioned as a consonant in the morphology of Hebrew).[8] This triliteral root means to be firm, confirmed, reliable, faithful, have faith, believe.
Popular among some theosophists,[10] proponents of Afrocentric theories of history,[11] and adherents of esoteric Christianity [12][13] is the conjecture that amen is a derivative of the name of the Egyptian god Amun (which is sometimes also spelled Amen). Some adherents of Eastern religions believe that amen shares roots with the Hindu Sanskrit word, Aum.[14][15][16][17] There is no academic support for either of these views. Note that the Hebrew word, as noted above, starts with aleph, while the Egyptian name begins with a yodh.[18]
Armenian word ամեն (pronounced /ˌɑːmˈɛn/) means "every", however it is used in the same form for ending of prayers.[19]
[edit] Hebrew BibleThree distinct Biblical usages of amen may be noted:[1]
1.Initial Amen, referring back to words of another speaker and introducing an affirmative sentence, e.g. 1 Kings 1:36.[1]
2.Detached Amen, again referring to the words of another speaker but without a complementary affirmative sentence, e.g. Nehemiah 5:13.[1]
3.Final Amen, with no change of speaker, as in the subsciption to the first three divisions of Psalms.[1]
[edit] New TestamentThere are 52 Amens in the Synoptic Gospels and 25 in John. The five final Amens (Matthew 6:13, 28:20, Mark 16:20, Luke 24:53 and John 21:25), which are wanting in the best manuscripts, simulate the effect of final amen in the Hebrew Psalms. All initial Amens occur in the sayings of Jesus. These initial Amens are unparalleled in Hebrew literature, according to Friedrich Delitzsch, because they do not refer to the words of a previous speaker but instead introduce a new thought.[20]
The uses of amen ("verily") in the Gospels form a peculiar class; they are initial, but often lack any backward reference.[21] Jesus used the word to affirm his own utterances[citation needed], not those of another person[citation needed], and this usage was adopted by the church. The use of the initial amen, single or double in form, to introduce solemn statements of Jesus in the Gospels had no parallel in Jewish practice.[22]
Amen in JudaismMain article: Berakhah
Although amen, in Judaism, is commonly stated as a response to a blessing, it is used often an affirmation of any declaration.
Jewish rabbinical law requires an individual to say Amen in a variety of contexts.[25]
Liturgically, amen is a communal response to be recited at certain points during the prayer service. It is recited communally to affirm a blessing made by the prayer reader. It is also mandated as a response during the kaddish doxology. The congregation is sometimes prompted to answer 'amen' by the terms ve-'imru (Hebrew: ואמרו) = "and [now] say (pl.)," or, ve-nomar (ונאמר) = "and let us say." Contemporary usage reflects ancient practice: As early as the 4th century BCE, Jews assembled in the Temple responded 'amen' at the close of a doxology or other prayer uttered by a priest. This Jewish liturgical use of amen was adopted by the Christians.[22] But Jewish law also requires individuals to answer amen whenever they hear a blessing recited, even in a non-liturgical setting.
The Talmud teaches homiletically that the word Amen is an acronym for אל מלך נאמן (’El melekh ne’eman, "God, trustworthy King"),[26] the phrase recited silently by an individual before reciting the Shma.
Jews usually pronounce the word as it is pronounced in Hebrew: /ɔːˈmeɪn/ aw-MAYN (Ashkenazi) or /ɑːˈmɛn/ ah-MEN (Sephardi).[27]
[edit] Amen in ChristianityThe use of "Amen" has been generally adopted in Christian worship as a concluding word for prayers and hymns and express strong agreements.[22] The liturgical use of the word in apostolic times is attested by the passage from 1 Corinthians cited above, and Justin Martyr (c. 150) describes the congregation as responding "amen," to the benediction after the celebration of the Eucharist.[1] Its introduction into the baptismal formula (in the Greek Orthodox Church it is pronounced after the name of each person of the Trinity) is probably later. Among certain Gnostic sects Amen became the name of an angel.
In Isaiah 65:16, the authorized version has "the God of truth," ("the God of Amen," in Hebrew. Jesus often used Amen to put emphasis to his own words (translated: "verily"). In John's Gospel, it is repeated, "Verily, verily." Amen is also used in oath (Numbers 5:22; Deuteronomy 27:15-26; Nehemiah 5:13; 8:6; 1 Chronicles 16:36). "Amen" is further found at the end of the prayer of primitive churches (1 Corinthians 14:16).[23]
In some Christian churches, the amen corner or amen section is any subset of the congregation likely to call out "Amen!" in response to points in a preacher's sermon.[citation needed] Metaphorically, the term can refer to any group of heartfelt traditionalists or supporters of an authority figure.
Amen is also used in standard, international French, but in Cajun French Ainsi soit-il ("so be it") is used instead.
Obviously Amen can be used different ways, so the onus is on you to show how Jesus used it in Rev 3:14
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March 5th 2011, 08:40 PM #240
Re: Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Dear Brother Bowman, It seems that I really feel some affection for you because you are a very devout Christian. Thank you for providing the Greek version of Rev 3:14, which is:
Reading this Greek version is very much the same as the King James version, which states:
KJV, Rev 3:14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
You then decide to state that both versions do not agree, which is highly false.
You are poorly read about the history of Amen. Amen is not simply a word meaning "Truth" or "So be it" but Amen is an entity, an Egyptian God that existed 2,000 years before the birth of Jesus. Yes, Amen means truth, but that was one of the greatest attributes of the God Amen. You fail to give Jesus credit for his knowledge about learning from his Hebrew teachers that Amen existed to become the one-universal God.
You are lacking an education either by poor exposure or a desire not to read history that may run counter to what you have learned in the Bible. This is unfortunate, for you will forever be lost in understanding what Jesus Christ said in Rev. 3:14.
For you to say that Jesus was never created is heresy because you deny the birth of Jesus by the Virgin Mary upon her conception by the Holy Spirit. You rather take one Gospel (John) over two other Gospels (Matthew and Luke) to substantiate that Jesus is not only a Son of God, but is in fact God. This is logic that makes no sense for Jesus to be both a Son and the Father is heresy. Only God, the Father existed from the very beginning of time and this is in accordance with the Torah, the first Holy Book to be written by the Jews.
Your Greek version does state that Amen was the origin (beginning), the creation, the God. Therefore, it was Amen who was Created. God therefore first introduced Himself to mankind as Amen, the God. Jesus explicitely stated he was a Son of Man 74 times in the 4 Gospels and only in the last Gospel of John does Jesus say 5 times he was the Son of God. This lends most people to believe the truth of Jesus that he was born a man of God and it is the Church Fathers that decided to make Jesus into not only a Son of God, but lo and behold, they decided to make Jesus the God of all there is. Geepers, this is a stretch of the imagination. The Church Fathers could not be content that Jesus was born as s Son of God, but they thought they may as well go for it all and proclaim Jesus is God the Father. Is this hersey? We have the Torah (1st Bible), and two Gospels that are in conflict with John's Gospel. If this is not a gross inconsistency, then it is beyond acceptance by those who desire to believe in God.
As far as you, Mr. Bowman, are concerned, you have got to read more and learn why Jesus said Amen was the origin, the creation, the God. Jesus could equally have said he was the origin, the creation, the God - but Jesus is not a man to propound an untruth. Jesus gives credit where credit is due and is trying to inform "all those that hath and ear" to listen to his words. Amen is the root of man's belief in one-universal God. Amen was accepted by the Jews and has profoundly influenced the development ofg the Judaic, Christian, and Islamic religions. Until the religious leaders of these religions acknowledge Amen as Common Bond of their religious beliefs, ther will be no peace on earth.
Until you read Future of God Amen, you, Mr. Bowman will be lost in not fully understanding the words of Jesus. you do not even proclaim the Word of Jesus, which is love one another. Until our sistersw and brothers, from every nation learn to love one another, there will be not peace on earth. The Word of Jesus is mankind's salvation. Jesus is the Word of God the Father. Read Future of God Amen.
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