Amen and the unity of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

[Bowman]

Sorry Bowman,

I have been refuting your trinity theory since I was 13 years old when I first discovered that that is what the Lutheran church was teaching. It has been an even longer time, however, that I believed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and individual Beings......that would be since I first learned to read.

I have heard all of the arguments in favor of the trinity - but the numbers of mankind who agree to the trinity mean nothing to me. My faith and beliefs about God are not based on a show-of-hands vote taken by man. Since it was the Holy Spirit who taught me there are three separate Beings in the Godhead, I never learned this by listening to man's doctrine. Therefore your argument is based upon a false premise when you assume that it was man who taught me this doctrine.

You DO puppet quite well what you have been taught by man. I know what the Holy Spirit has taught me; you do not. Indeed your efforts to derail this thread are duly noted.

jo

Well rehearsed speech, Jo.

However, you supply no scriptural evidence for your rejection of the Trinity.

Give it a go, Jo...show us what you think you know...

[Bowman]

The man that Christianity worships is not G-d.

Yes, He is.

Even the OT prophets describe Yahweh as a man.

[RBerman]

LDS is a cult with the sole intention of denying Jesus' deity. Same as Judaism, Islam, JW's, etc, etc...

I wouldn't say that "the sole intention" of any of those groups is to deny Jesus' deity. In the case of Mormonism in particular, several components help explain its origins:

1) Unitarianism was in vogue in Britain and the US during the 18th and early 19th centuries, as a prelude to the outright agnosticism of the late 19th century and the atheism of the 20th century.

2) In the wake of the Great Awakening, the early 19th century was also a time of religious diversification in America. The Mormons date from that time, during which there was also a major end-times scare that fizzled out in 1844. There was much openness to a man who claimed a novel message from God.

3) Mormonism was originally a sex cult. The whole point was to justify the multiple "marriages" that Joseph Smith sought with the wives and children of his followers and neighbors. It's a scenario that's repeated many times in world history, always with an explosive conclusion. Usually, after things explode, the survivors re-integrate into the dominant culture. This time, however, the cultists had an "out" in the form of the American frontier. Instead of re-integrating, they fled to Utah and established a kingdom. There are never going to be enough women to sustain a polygamist cult indefinitely, barring wars to kill the excess young bachelors, and under the rigors of frontier life Mormonism ultimately dropped the polygamy but kept the unitarianism and the emphasis on ongoing divine revelation which allowed it to unmoor itself from the Bible whenever Scripture became inconvenient.

[Bowman]

I wouldn't say that "the sole intention" of any of those groups is to deny Jesus' deity. In the case of Mormonism in particular, several components help explain its origins:

1) Unitarianism was in vogue in Britain and the US during the 18th and early 19th centuries, as a prelude to the outright agnosticism of the late 19th century and the atheism of the 20th century.

2) In the wake of the Great Awakening, the early 19th century was also a time of religious diversification in America. The Mormons date from that time, during which there was also a major end-times scare that fizzled out in 1844. There was much openness to a man who claimed a novel message from God.

3) Mormonism was originally a sex cult. The whole point was to justify the multiple "marriages" that Joseph Smith sought with the wives and children of his followers and neighbors. It's a scenario that's repeated many times in world history, always with an explosive conclusion. Usually, after things explode, the survivors re-integrate into the dominant culture. This time, however, the cultists had an "out" in the form of the American frontier. Instead of re-integrating, they fled to Utah and established a kingdom. There are never going to be enough women to sustain a polygamist cult indefinitely, barring wars to kill the excess young bachelors, and under the rigors of frontier life Mormonism ultimately dropped the polygamy but kept the unitarianism and the emphasis on ongoing divine revelation which allowed it to unmoor itself from the Bible whenever Scripture became inconvenient.

Good points, brother.

However, the bottom line is that all of these groups deny Jesus' deity.


He who has the Son has eternal life.

He who does not have the Son does not have eternal life.


After all, this is what matters in the end.

[jo7241974]

Well rehearsed speech, Jo.

However, you supply no scriptural evidence for your rejection of the Trinity.

Give it a go, Jo...show us what you think you know...

Sorry, you are the one who tells me I am not a Christian. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Holy Spirit did not teach me what I know about the Godhead. Unless you can, there is no incentive for me to continue responding to your unChristlike tauntings and accusations. Your derision comes from satan; not Christ.

jo

[Bowman]

Sorry, you are the one who tells me I am not a Christian. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Holy Spirit did not teach me what I know about the Godhead. Unless you can, there is no incentive for me to continue responding to your unChristlike tauntings and accusations. Your derision comes from satan; not Christ.

jo

You were the very first to assert that others do not think that you are a Christian.

We just affirmed what you already stated.


So much for your knowledge of scripture.

[jo7241974]

You were the very first to assert that others do not think that you are a Christian.

We just affirmed what you already stated.


So much for your knowledge of scripture.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Even the OT prophets describe Yahweh as a man.

What is Yahweh? Assuming you meant G-d, list a reference from the Tanakh backing this up.

[Bowman]

What is Yahweh? Assuming you meant G-d, list a reference from the Tanakh backing this up.

יְהוָה= “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426

[RBerman]

Bowman, I think he was asking where the Old Testament describes Yahweh as a man.

[barnasha]

Bowman, I think he was asking where the Old Testament describes Yahweh as a man.

Of course, by that logic, God is a cloud as much as a man. Exodus 19:9

[Tanakh Keeper]

There is no W in the Hebrew language.

Plus your references are all from Christianity. Nothing to do with G-d, Judaism, or the Hebrew language.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Of course, by that logic, God is a cloud as much as a man. Exodus 19:9

Agreed. Putting G-d into a form is just idol worship.

[RBerman]

Of course, by that logic, God is a cloud as much as a man. Exodus 19:9

I understand that. I just don't know where Bowman is headed.

[Nick Ginex]

Thank you Jo for your response.

You have not told me what the Word of God is. God had His surrogate, Jesus, announce it three times in the Gospel of John.

Do not consider yourself incapable of reading and understanding the Bible. It has many wonderful moral teachings, but it also has its myths and inconsistencies. As an inspired Holy Book, God has presented it so that people can easily understand it. To say it is a mystery in some parts is an excuse for futher misinterpretation and convoluted thinking.

Read the Bible, especially the words of Jesus. All other portions of the Bible are second-hand and are beliefs and thoughts of men that give their own impressions, which are not from God or His Holy Spirit.

Nick Ginex