The Return of Christ - 1844

[RBerman]

You seem pretty sure about these things that God can't do. I wonder on what grounds your confidence lies. And the Bible does not teach that Christ "contains God" anyway, or that Christ "became" God. Christ is God incarnate, the Eternal Son.

I'm trying to be clear in what I'm saying, but I guess language is limiting. My statement is not meant to limit what God can do but rather affirm what God isn't. Human nature has always caused us to want a God which is understandable. We've tried statues and images of God down through the ages and I think that believing in "God incarnate" is just an example of that kind of longing to make God fit our own capicity to comprehend. We're still taking baby steps to comprehend the universe. How can we think that we comprehend the Creator of the universe? I have never seen where Christ refers to Himself as "God incarnate". This is a man-made concept. What I'm sure of is that the reality of God is beyond our comprehension, and always will be.

Certainly the totality of God is beyond our comprehension; to fully understand God, we would have to be God fully. Nevertheless, God has condescended to reveal truths about himself to us in Scripture-- not fully, but truly all the same. I exhort you to replace your sun/mirror analogies of human reason (an attempt to understand God, yes?) with God as He reveals Himself in the text which He uniquely inspired for that purpose: The Bible. I guarantee it contains much about God that you will find incomprehensible; I find that to be the case myself. But it also speaks clearly about God on certain issues, and we should not be ashamed to say that we understand, at least partly, those things which God has revealed so that we might understand them. Can you take God at His Word?

[harlan]

Certainly the totality of God is beyond our comprehension; to fully understand God, we would have to be God fully. Nevertheless, God has condescended to reveal truths about himself to us in Scripture-- not fully, but truly all the same. I exhort you to replace your sun/mirror analogies of human reason (an attempt to understand God, yes?) with God as He reveals Himself in the text which He uniquely inspired for that purpose: The Bible. I guarantee it contains much about God that you will find incomprehensible; I find that to be the case myself. But it also speaks clearly about God on certain issues, and we should not be ashamed to say that we understand, at least partly, those things which God has revealed so that we might understand them. Can you take God at His Word?

I don't think you understand. I'm a Baha'i. Why would I throw away the faith I love because someone I don't know tells me to? You seem to assume that I haven't read the Bible. I've already mentioned that I was once a Christian, an active Christian. I read the Bible then and I still read the Bible. In fact I have read the Bible much more since becoming a Baha'i than I ever did as a Baha'i, probably because it makes so much more sense to me as a Baha'i. I have always known people, some in my family, who believe as you do. I just do not agree with basic understandings of God and the Bible which you have. People think differently. It's a fact of life. Christians do not agree on the meanings in the Bible, so why would you expect Baha'is to agree with you? Just restating your beliefs over and over accomplishes nothing. My belief in Baha'u'llah is solid. My belief in Christ rests upon the testimony of Baha'u'llah that Christ truly manifests God. I am looking forward to dying as a Baha'i and ascending to the heavenly worlds, and at my age that's not to far off. Learning of Baha'u'llah was the greatest gift of God to me. I would never tell you what you should believe because Baha'is believe that everyone should investigate truth independently and decide for themselves what the truth is. I do not condemn anyone for believing what they have found to be true, even if it differs from what I believe. This is between each individual and God. History is full of too many people being forced and coerced to believe one religion or another. Too many people blinding follow their ancestors in their beliefs without any thought or investigation. Let me state it one more time: I'm a committed Baha'i because I've investigated it, as well as other religions, and found nothing but truth, wisdom and beauty.

[RBerman]

I don't think you understand. I'm a Baha'i. Why would I throw away the faith I love because someone I don't know tells me to? You seem to assume that I haven't read the Bible. I've already mentioned that I was once a Christian, an active Christian. I read the Bible then and I still read the Bible. In fact I have read the Bible much more since becoming a Baha'i than I ever did as a Baha'i, probably because it makes so much more sense to me as a Baha'i. I have always known people, some in my family, who believe as you do. I just do not agree with basic understandings of God and the Bible which you have. People think differently. It's a fact of life. Christians do not agree on the meanings in the Bible, so why would you expect Baha'is to agree with you? Just restating your beliefs over and over accomplishes nothing. My belief in Baha'u'llah is solid. My belief in Christ rests upon the testimony of Baha'u'llah that Christ truly manifests God. I am looking forward to dying as a Baha'i and ascending to the heavenly worlds, and at my age that's not to far off. Learning of Baha'u'llah was the greatest gift of God to me. I would never tell you what you should believe because Baha'is believe that everyone should investigate truth independently and decide for themselves what the truth is. I do not condemn anyone for believing what they have found to be true, even if it differs from what I believe. This is between each individual and God. History is full of too many people being forced and coerced to believe one religion or another. Too many people blinding follow their ancestors in their beliefs without any thought or investigation. Let me state it one more time: I'm a committed Baha'i because I've investigated it, as well as other religions, and found nothing but truth, wisdom and beauty.

I do understand that you're a Bahai, and that your beliefs include "I would never tell you what you should believe." I'm a Christian, and my beliefs include, "I have been commanded by God to tell you what you must believe." I can't make you believe it, obviously. And I wouldn't expect you to simply take the word of an Internet stranger about what the Bible says. But you earlier admitted that you had never heard the Christian teaching that God's standard is perfection. I've tried to show you what the Bible actually says about that, but you have not even interacted with the texts I have posted. But if my posts seem to you to be "simply restating [my] beliefs over and over," then obviously this exchange has become unprofitable.

[reece1984]

Some of the distinguishing teachings of Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God) are:


3. All the great world religions were inspired by the same God.

.

So God inspired Islam's teaching that God is not a trinity, and that Jesus is not God, and also inspired the Bible's teaching that Jesus is God, is worshipped, is prayed to, is Savior of the world, and the Son of God, all of which Islam clearly denies? Wow...No way..!

[JAYMZ]

So God inspired Islam's teaching that God is not a trinity, and that Jesus is not God, and also inspired the Bible's teaching that Jesus is God, is worshipped, is prayed to, is Savior of the world, and the Son of God, all of which Islam clearly denies? Wow...No way..!

I was thinking that the Baha'i God seemed a little Schizophrenic.

[JAYMZ]

As to the Christian doctrine of Jesus being "God incarnate," I would rather go to the Christian scripture inself to see how this can be supported:

Hi harlan. lets do that.

Scripture Verse:

John 1:1-4 (New International Version)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

John goes to great lengths to show his readers who the Word is. Here John is conveying the eternal nature of the Word. And that the Word is distinct from God, but is in very nature God also.
Then he shows the Word as the creator, and states nothing has been made without His involvement. The Word isnt some idea that had always been with God, because John makes sure he uses personal pronouns for the Word. Ideas are not " He " or " Him. "

Scripture Verse:

John 1:14 (New International Version)
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word, who is God but separate from the Father, has now taken on human flesh. Why did the Word come to earth ?

Scripture Verse:

John 1:18 (New International Version)
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

The Word, who was with the Father, has come to reveal God to humanity. No one can see God because He is Spirit, but when the Word became flesh, He could now be visible seen.

Paul expands on the incarnation.

Scripture Verse:

Philippians 2:5-8 (New International Version)

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Paul is saying that even though Christ very nature is divine that He loved humanity enough to leave His place to suffer as a man and to submit Himself to the crucifixion.

These verses from scripture show that Jesus Christ existed before He took on human flesh in the incarnation. Thats not the traditions of Church history, but scripture. Church history formed their opinions based on what they found revealed in scripture.

Just something to think about.

[reece1984]

My rejection of Baha'u'llah is not based on whether he's a nice guy. Plenty of atheists are nice guys. Baha'u'llah falls in the "destructive heresies" category. He reduces Jesus to the role of only a good teacher, rather than being God incarnate and the exclusive path to God

Baha'u'llah's teachings are a "destructive heresy" in the same way that Jesus' teachings are a "destructive heresy" from the point of view of orthodox Jews. A heresy is an unorthodox set of beliefs. When a Messiah appears He is always considered heretical by the orthodox of His day.

I don't think you've read what Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith teaches about Christ or you would not have said that Baha'u'llah reduces Jesus to the role of a "good teacher". Here is the authorized statement of the Baha'i Faith concerning Christianity and Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Baha'u'llah as the 'Spirit of God,' is proclaimed as the One Who 'appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,' and is even extolled as the 'Essence of the Spirit.' His mother is described as 'that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance,' and the station of her Son eulogized as a 'station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,' whilst Peter is recognized as on whom God has caused 'the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.'"

From this quote you can gather that Baha'u'llah does not consider Jesus as just a "good teacher."

As to the Christian doctrine of Jesus being "God incarnate," I would rather go to the Christian scripture inself to see how this can be supported:

Jesus said: "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". (John 14:30)

"I and My Father are one." (John 10:30)

"I am He (the Father)". (John 8:24)

"I am in the Father and the Father in Me". (John 14:11)

"And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." (John 12:45)

But Jesus also said: "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him."
(John 1:18)

"I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"I can of Mine own self do nothing.....not My own will, but the will of the Father which has sent Me." (John 5:30)

"I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matt a24:36)
(If Jesus was God, Incarnate, He would know all God knows.)

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" (Mk 15:34) (If Jesus were God incarnate, would he forsake Himself?)

The Church Fathers read these apparently contradictory statements by Christ and created the doctrine of Jesus being God incarnate. This doctrine is the product of their thinking, the thinking of mortals. Other competing doctrines which tried to define the relationship between God and Christ were ruthlessly stamped out as being "heresies" and the orthodox doctrine now is the "God incarnate" doctrine. Is there a better way to visualize the relationship between God and Christ? Baha'u'llah presented a way of seeing it which is worth considering, in my opinion. It goes like this:

God is like the sun (analogy only), and Christ is like a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Rays of the sun (the Holy Spirit) to humanity. If one sees the Sun (God) when one looks into the Mirror (Christ), then you could rightly say that you see God. On the other hand, you could also say that the image of the Sun in the Mirror is not actually the Sun (God), but that the Sun is really 94 million miles away from the Mirror. But all the qualities of the Sun are reflected in the Mirror. The Sun did not come down to earth for that would have destroyed the earth, and the Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror. The Infinite cannot be contained in a finite material body.

This analogy is also used to explain the "Second Coming" of Christ. A new Perfect Mirror appears Who again reflects the Light of God to humanity and proclaims that this is the same Light which appeared before in the Mirror named Jesus. Baha'u'llah claims to be that new Perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God for this new age of fulfillment. He did not ask people to blindly accept what He claims, but to investigate. To be fair in your judgement, you'd have to use the same criteria to ascertain the truth of Baha'u'llah that you use to ascertain the truth of Christ. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time were content to keep things as they were. They would not accept anything which conflicted with their own imaginings of how their Messiah was to appear. Should we expect Christian leaders to be any fairer in their judgment?

Excuse me, can you please tell me what Thomas meant when he called Jesus "my Lord and my God" at John 20:28? "My God" seems to be a very clear and unambiguous affirmation of Godhood to me. Would you call someone "my God" if that person were not you God?

Also, Hebrews 1:8-10; Colossians 1:16-18 and John 1:1-3, 10 tells us that the Word (Jesus) created the world. Do Bahai's acknowledge Jesus as the Creator? Yes or no?

Finally, obviously there is only ONE true God, right? So when Jesus is called God in Scripture, is it saying that he is a true God, or a false god? Which category would you put him in? Just a thought...

[RBerman]

Just so you know, Harlan hasn't been on this site for six months.

[JAYMZ]

Oh.

[barnasha]

So God inspired Islam's teaching that God is not a trinity, and that Jesus is not God, and also inspired the Bible's teaching that Jesus is God, is worshipped, is prayed to, is Savior of the world, and the Son of God, all of which Islam clearly denies? Wow...No way..!

jesus didnt teach any of that..

[reece1984]

jesus didnt teach any of that..

Oh come on now...are you really denying that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God? If you don't believe the Bible, just say so, and if you don't, how would you know what Jesus taught or didn't teach?

[Undertaker]

Yep 1844, 1984, Y2K, now you have 2012, not to be out done the evangelicals have a May 21, 2011 date I don't guess they will ever learn. I think the odds are he ain't coming back. 220 plus failed dates of a supposed Jesus return:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm

As far as Jesus goes he did not write anything....you only have the Gospels and and thats not saying much.

[harlan]

I'm baaaack. The nature of Christ has been a controversy among Christians since the beginning of Christianity, and it's still not settled. Why? Because words and scripture can be understood in many ways. There is no authority recognized by all Christians to bring a common understanding. Christians seem to be less united in their views than ever. It's fruitless for people to say "I'm right and you're wrong." I think the pertinent Biblical quotes have been stated. For Baha'is there is no controversy about the nature of Christ or Baha'u'llah. That's not to say that we understand this Divine nature. It's far above our ability to comprehend, but Baha'is are counselled by Baha'u'llah to not insist that one view is right and another is wrong. We share our individual understandings and consider the views of others. Baha'u'llah did appoint Abdu'l-Baha to be the authorized interpreter of scripture after His ascension so that Baha'is would not be divided. This is the first time in religious history that such an appointment in writing was made concerning what to do after the passing of the Manifestation of God. He also put His Revelation into writing Himself, over 100 books, and stated that hearsay was not to be considered authoritative scripture. In other words we can't say that something is a Baha'i teaching because a companion of Baha'u'llah heard Him say it.

It's also interesting that prophecy concerning the coming of a Messiah is not the reason most people accept Him. The Jews certainly were not convinced by their own prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. Those who accepted Jesus did so because of His affect on them. Jewish leaders even today prove that Jesus was not their Messiah by quoting their prophecies. I heard this from a Rabbi at a presentation of the Jewish Faith. So the fulfillment of prophecies is usually in an unexpected way. The meaning is generally spiritual rather than literal.

Harlan

[Undertaker]

I'm baaaack. The nature of Christ has been a controversy among Christians since the beginning of Christianity, and it's still not settled. Why? Because words and scripture can be understood in many ways. There is no authority recognized by all Christians to bring a common understanding. Christians seem to be less united in their views than ever. It's fruitless for people to say "I'm right and you're wrong." I think the pertinent Biblical quotes have been stated. For Baha'is there is no controversy about the nature of Christ or Baha'u'llah. That's not to say that we understand this Divine nature. It's far above our ability to comprehend, but Baha'is are counselled by Baha'u'llah to not insist that one view is right and another is wrong. We share our individual understandings and consider the views of others. Baha'u'llah did appoint Abdu'l-Baha to be the authorized interpreter of scripture after His ascension so that Baha'is would not be divided. This is the first time in religious history that such an appointment in writing was made concerning what to do after the passing of the Manifestation of God. He also put His Revelation into writing Himself, over 100 books, and stated that hearsay was not to be considered authoritative scripture. In other words we can't say that something is a Baha'i teaching because a companion of Baha'u'llah heard Him say it.

It's also interesting that prophecy concerning the coming of a Messiah is not the reason most people accept Him. The Jews certainly were not convinced by their own prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. Those who accepted Jesus did so because of His affect on them. Jewish leaders even today prove that Jesus was not their Messiah by quoting their prophecies. I heard this from a Rabbi at a presentation of the Jewish Faith. So the fulfillment of prophecies is usually in an unexpected way. The meaning is generally spiritual rather than literal.

Harlan

It's also interesting that prophecy concerning the coming of a Messiah is not the reason most people accept Him.

No its faith based. People just accept what they are told without questioning it.

[OneSizeFit]

Processional ages. The end of ages.