The Return of Christ - 1844

[reece1984]

I'm baaaack. The nature of Christ has been a controversy among Christians since the beginning of Christianity, and it's still not settled. Why? Because words and scripture can be understood in many ways. There is no authority recognized by all Christians to bring a common understanding. Christians seem to be less united in their views than ever. It's fruitless for people to say "I'm right and you're wrong." I think the pertinent Biblical quotes have been stated. For Baha'is there is no controversy about the nature of Christ or Baha'u'llah. That's not to say that we understand this Divine nature. It's far above our ability to comprehend, but Baha'is are counselled by Baha'u'llah to not insist that one view is right and another is wrong. We share our individual understandings and consider the views of others. Baha'u'llah did appoint Abdu'l-Baha to be the authorized interpreter of scripture after His ascension so that Baha'is would not be divided. This is the first time in religious history that such an appointment in writing was made concerning what to do after the passing of the Manifestation of God. He also put His Revelation into writing Himself, over 100 books, and stated that hearsay was not to be considered authoritative scripture. In other words we can't say that something is a Baha'i teaching because a companion of Baha'u'llah heard Him say it.

It's also interesting that prophecy concerning the coming of a Messiah is not the reason most people accept Him. The Jews certainly were not convinced by their own prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. Those who accepted Jesus did so because of His affect on them. Jewish leaders even today prove that Jesus was not their Messiah by quoting their prophecies. I heard this from a Rabbi at a presentation of the Jewish Faith. So the fulfillment of prophecies is usually in an unexpected way. The meaning is generally spiritual rather than literal.

Harlan

So because all Bahai's are united in their beliefs that makes them better off than us Christian? Well, all Muslims are in agreement that Jesus is not the Son of God! Does that make them better off than us (as you might call it) divided Christians? There are people who deny that the Holocaust ever happened. People will never be united on everything until God steps in at the end of the age and corrects the world. In the meantime, I know the Bible is true, do you? Is the Bible God's word? Yes, or No?

If your answer is yes, then plese tell me, John 1:1, is the Word God? Yes or No? Did the Word/God become flesh in verse 14? Is Isaiah 9:6 talking about Jesus? If not, who is the "mighty God, everlasting Father" that was born as a child in that verse? Did Thomas confess Jesus as "my Lord and My God" John 20:28? Do you agree with Peter and Paul that Jesus is "our God and Saviour" Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1? Clearly, if you don't then you don't believe God who inspired these writings! One standard to judge a prophet is to see if he agrees with the former prophets. Since BahaUlla does not agree with this, he cannot be from God anyway. You may be afraid to come out and say if someone's beliefs are right or wrong, but Jesus wasn't, his disciples weren't and neither am I, so I'm telling you, you are wrong.

[jo7241974]

Hi Harlan,

I am quite ignorant about your beliefs, although I did go to the website you suggested early in this thread, and did some reading there. I have some questions for you.

Do you believe that Baha'u'llah is the very Jesus Christ who was crucified and Resurrected? Or is he a special kind of prophet (as his appearance seems to be different from other Prophets portrayed in the Bible)?

It is my understanding from reading Revelation that the return of Jesus Christ in His Glory will be quite different from what I can gather on these posts as representing the way Baha'u'llah appeared. Also, other details of the Revelation have not yet been fulfilled, which cause me concern.

Now, I would offer that indeed there was quite a bit happening spiritually to the world during the 19th century, and so it does not surprise me to hear that other spiritual men of God showed up. Also, inasmuch as we are not entirely privy as to the whereabouts of all of the houses of Israel, I would not be surprised that there are men of God arising from the missing tribes who are beginning to gather their brethren from all corners of the earth in preparation for fulfilling the events revealed in Revelation. However, since I do not believe the tribulation period has taken place, nor have the earthquakes which will reshape the face of the earth as we now know it taken place, etc., I need to understand how your belief system reconciles these things. As you can see, I obviously have some holes in understanding the actual role that Baha'u'llah fills in correlation with the Jesus Christ who is the Son of Almighty God in the Bible.

Thank you!!

jo

[harlan]

Hi Jo,

You have good questions. To get a feeling for the Baha'i perspective of Who Baha'u'llah is, it is good to look back at the reasons for the rejection by the Jewish leaders of Christ as their promised Messiah. They rejected Him because of their interpretation of their own prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. The Messiah was to come as a king and free them from their oppressors; He was to be a descendant of King David and He would be preceded by the return of Elijah who had been bodily taken up into heaven. They said that it was obvious that He did not fulfill these expectations, whereas Christians would say that His kingdom was not of this world and that His was a spiritual descent from King David. Nowhere is it stated in the Bible that Mary was a descendant of King David. So Jesus was rejected because of a very literal understanding of prophecy rather than looking at the deeper spiritual meaning. The disciples of Christ followed Him because of their recognition of His spiritual greatness, even though they showed a slowness in recognizing Who He really was. Jesus indicated that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah even though John had denied this when he was asked. Baha'is would say that John was the return of the qualities of Elijah and not the human personality or physical body of Elijah. We actually are told in the Bible who John's mother was, and therefore we know that he didn't descend physically from heaven.

Jesus was also asked how to know a true prophet and He compared a true Prophet to a tree which could only bear good fruit. A false Prophet was like a tree which could only bear bad fruit. So the fruits of a Prophet, His teachings, are to be used as evidence of being true or false.

Baha'u'llah teaches that a Prophet is like a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God to humanity. To know the Prophet is the same as knowing God, ie. the spiritual light seen in the Prophet is the Light of God. In this sense the Light of God seen in Jesus is the same Light of God seen in Baha'u'llah. In that sense Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. Just as John was the return of Elijah as Jesus said, even though Elijah was believed to have been bodily taken up into heaven, so Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus, even though Christians believe that He arose bodily to heaven. Baha'u'llah says, "Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His Own Self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-knowing, the All-Wise." "Not of My Own volition have I revealed myself but God, of His Own choosing hath manifested Me." Because of this, Baha'u'llah gave up a life of wealth and position in Persia to live a life of exile, torture and hardship as a prisoner of the Ottoman Turks to guide mankind to "all truth". He was eventually brought to the prison-city of Akka, Palestine, today a part of Israel. He has left us 18,000 written works including 6,000,000 words. These are writings He Himself wrote, many of which are in English and on-line.

When people first hear about Baha'u'llah, they usually think, "Why haven't I ever heard of Baha'u'llah if He is so great?" Baha'u'llah did not sit quietly as a prisoner. He wrote letters called Tablets to the most powerful rulers and religious leaders of His day, including the Pope, the Caliph of Islam, Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, the Kaiser of Germany and the Tsar of Russia. Today there are organized communities of Baha'is in virtually every country of the world where this is possible. There are about 6,000,000 Baha'is of all races, nationalities and religious backgrounds who accept Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ as promised in the Bible. Of course there is opposition and denial by religious leaders. That's how it has been in the past, and that's the way it is today. Baha'u'llah wrote to the Shah of Persia asking him to bring Him (Baha'u'llah) before a meeting of the religious leaders of Persia that He might establish the proofs of His mission and His Person, that they might judge for themselves the truth. They didn't have the courage to do that. So that is the position we're all in. We have to judge for ourselves the "fruit" of Baha'u'llah.

Harlan

[jo7241974]

Hi Jo,

You have good questions. To get a feeling for the Baha'i perspective of Who Baha'u'llah is, it is good to look back at the reasons for the rejection by the Jewish leaders of Christ as their promised Messiah. They rejected Him because of their interpretation of their own prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. The Messiah was to come as a king and free them from their oppressors; He was to be a descendant of King David and He would be preceded by the return of Elijah who had been bodily taken up into heaven. They said that it was obvious that He did not fulfill these expectations, whereas Christians would say that His kingdom was not of this world and that His was a spiritual descent from King David. Nowhere is it stated in the Bible that Mary was a descendant of King David. So Jesus was rejected because of a very literal understanding of prophecy rather than looking at the deeper spiritual meaning. The disciples of Christ followed Him because of their recognition of His spiritual greatness, even though they showed a slowness in recognizing Who He really was. Jesus indicated that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah even though John had denied this when he was asked. Baha'is would say that John was the return of the qualities of Elijah and not the human personality or physical body of Elijah. We actually are told in the Bible who John's mother was, and therefore we know that he didn't descend physically from heaven.

Jesus was also asked how to know a true prophet and He compared a true Prophet to a tree which could only bear good fruit. A false Prophet was like a tree which could only bear bad fruit. So the fruits of a Prophet, His teachings, are to be used as evidence of being true or false.

Baha'u'llah teaches that a Prophet is like a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God to humanity. To know the Prophet is the same as knowing God, ie. the spiritual light seen in the Prophet is the Light of God. In this sense the Light of God seen in Jesus is the same Light of God seen in Baha'u'llah. In that sense Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. Just as John was the return of Elijah as Jesus said, even though Elijah was believed to have been bodily taken up into heaven, so Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus, even though Christians believe that He arose bodily to heaven. Baha'u'llah says, "Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His Own Self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-knowing, the All-Wise." "Not of My Own volition have I revealed myself but God, of His Own choosing hath manifested Me." Because of this, Baha'u'llah gave up a life of wealth and position in Persia to live a life of exile, torture and hardship as a prisoner of the Ottoman Turks to guide mankind to "all truth". He was eventually brought to the prison-city of Akka, Palestine, today a part of Israel. He has left us 18,000 written works including 6,000,000 words. These are writings He Himself wrote, many of which are in English and on-line.

When people first hear about Baha'u'llah, they usually think, "Why haven't I ever heard of Baha'u'llah if He is so great?" Baha'u'llah did not sit quietly as a prisoner. He wrote letters called Tablets to the most powerful rulers and religious leaders of His day, including the Pope, the Caliph of Islam, Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, the Kaiser of Germany and the Tsar of Russia. Today there are organized communities of Baha'is in virtually every country of the world where this is possible. There are about 6,000,000 Baha'is of all races, nationalities and religious backgrounds who accept Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ as promised in the Bible. Of course there is opposition and denial by religious leaders. That's how it has been in the past, and that's the way it is today. Baha'u'llah wrote to the Shah of Persia asking him to bring Him (Baha'u'llah) before a meeting of the religious leaders of Persia that He might establish the proofs of His mission and His Person, that they might judge for themselves the truth. They didn't have the courage to do that. So that is the position we're all in. We have to judge for ourselves the "fruit" of Baha'u'llah.

Harlan

Hi Harlan,

I am so glad that it was not too late for me to participate in your thread. You have been kind in responding to me so quickly! Since you are familiar with the Bible, this should make it easier for you understand where I am coming from. Even though I do not profess complete understanding of every verse in the Bible, I realize that I am not yet able to know all truth, though the Holy Spirit continues to guide and direct me and teaches me about the Kingdom of God in a fairly continual manner. This is why I am so interested in what you believe as I have faith that the Holy Spirit will let me know if I am hearing any truth.

The Bible does not give a lot of direction on being able to identify false teachers and false prophets. It tells us that false Christs will show up as well. Meanwhile, we know that the heavens are opened, as evidenced by so much happening spiritually in the world in the 1900's. So my desire is to be honest in my questions and in seeking whatever Truth you may or may not have to share with me. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught us that Truth is everywhere, and that we should seek it so that the Truth we have can be added upon (and, hopefully, vice versa).

The guidelines given are simple. Does the teacher and/or the prophet teach the "Good News" Gospel message (which, btw, is NOT the teachings of the entire Bible---Heaven knows mankind will never agree on all of doctrine while we are still in the flesh), and that would be Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified dead for all the sins of mankind, and was Resurrected on the third day, overcoming physical death, and then He Ascended back into Heaven where He serves at the right hand of Father. The Atonement of our sins is a gift to all of those who believe in Him. Immortality is a gift to all of mankind regardless of whether or not they believe in Him. Then the test moves on for us to look for the fruit of work of the man in question.

Do you realize that no where in the Bible that we are given instructions on what to do with a false teacher or false prophet other than to avoid adopting their teachings? Orthodox teachings have taken it upon themselves to add to the instructions of indentifying a false teacher or false prophet to include their destruction. This is just as in the days of the OT prophets who often met their physical death at the hands of those who did not like what the Prophet was teaching them. The same thing happend to the Prophet Joseph Smith; killed by a mob of men who did not like his teachings.

Now, I have never come across a religious man who has claimed to be Christ who has turned out to gather as many followers as Baha'u'llah. So there must be something special about him. Perhaps if he merely claimed to be a prophet, I would have an easier time accepting his teachings. But since we know that there will be false Christs, I am reluctant to accept him than anything more than a "type" for Christ. And even types for Christ in the Bible never claimed to BE Christ.

It almost sounds that Baha'u'llah is claiming that his arrival is the FIRST arrival of Christ, the Son of God. Is this a correct interpretation? I would need to see the support for your belief that his arrival is the first coming of Christ before I can address any futher comments. Now, OTOH, if his claim is that his arrival is the Second Coming of Christ, then the prophesies about Christ's Second Coming just do not appear to have been fulfilled either.

What is his lineage? The lineage you presented through Mary is questionable because her espoused husband, Joseph, was adopted into her family by her father which was a part of the Law of Moses which had been added to the Law by Moses himself. This legally made her husband a part of the lineage of David. Also, if I remember correctly (and may be off base here), Mary's lineage is traceable to David. Thus both Mary's direct lineage to David, and through her husbands adoption (and therefore, an heir) to her father, her husband is also of the lineage of David.

At this point, I see Baha'a'llah as just as another spiritual man of God who has received a special calling from God to fulfill a purpose God has in mind for him, which is to gater a remnant of the lost tribes of Israel together in preparation for the fulfillment of latter-day prophesies.

I would also like to discuss that the Holy Spirit is a gift to all of mankind. He can lead us each individually to all Truth. His purpose is not to lead just one indiividual only to all Truth, and then have that person then teach us what he has learned. I am, however, anxious to give the benefit of the doubt until I have heard your entire story. God works in mysterious ways and I am not ready to shove this off as some type of trick of satan's. What does concern me is that in the latter-days, as we approach the end times, satan and his beast and his false prophet will be using their full powers to perform many miracles; even being able to bring statues to life. Through these actions, they will be able to fool the children of men into following them. Therefore, we must be firm in our faith and conviction in what is actually True versus what may at first blush appear to be true, but is rather false.

Inasmuch as I know that your beliefs are prescious to you - and you certainly appear to manifest a great deal of love toward your fellow men, I do not wish to offend you in any way.

Best regards,

jo

[shunyadragon]

The Bible does not give a lot of direction on being able to identify false teachers and false prophets. It tells us that false Christs will show up as well. Meanwhile, we know that the heavens are opened, as evidenced by so much happening spiritually in the world in the 1900's. So my desire is to be honest in my questions and in seeking whatever Truth you may or may not have to share with me. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught us that Truth is everywhere, and that we should seek it so that the Truth we have can be added upon (and, hopefully, vice versa).

The guidelines given are simple. Does the teacher and/or the prophet teach the "Good News" Gospel message (which, btw, is NOT the teachings of the entire Bible---Heaven knows mankind will never agree on all of doctrine while we are still in the flesh), and that would be Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified dead for all the sins of mankind, and was Resurrected on the third day, overcoming physical death, and then He Ascended back into Heaven where He serves at the right hand of Father. The Atonement of our sins is a gift to all of those who believe in Him. Immortality is a gift to all of mankind regardless of whether or not they believe in Him. Then the test moves on for us to look for the fruit of work of the man in question.

It would be nice if it were that simple, but it is not likely that the truth of a religion is that simple.

Your asking that the message endorse exactly what the Orthodox teaching of the establishment religion, in this case Christianity, as specifically and literally true, and throughout history this has not been the case including the message of Jesus Christ did not endorse the specific literal Orthodox position of the Jews of the time. IF Revelation is universal with humanity, as I believe it is, none of the Orthodox position of any religion, belief system, church or whatever will be literally true.

The belief that the relationship between God and humanity is universal throughout human history in all the diversity of human religious experience is important to the Baha'i view. The human Orthodox position in any point in the time and place in human history is essentially that, a fallible human view of what the relationship between God and God's Creation including humanity is. None of the other traditional religions are willing to accept this universal view of the relationship between humanity and God represents, because they compare all other religious beliefs with their own yard stick of Orthodoxy, and throughout history this has always failed including the Jews view at the time of Christ.

I believe Aristotle got it right in 'Physica' when he said to understand the knowledge in all fields you must consider the universal in all things. this would always preclude any one human perspective of anything as Orthodox and true.

Do you realize that no where in the Bible that we are given instructions on what to do with a false teacher or false prophet other than to avoid adopting their teachings? Orthodox teachings have taken it upon themselves to add to the instructions of in identifying a false teacher or false prophet to include their destruction. This is just as in the days of the OT prophets who often met their physical death at the hands of those who did not like what the Prophet was teaching them. The same thing happened to the Prophet Joseph Smith; killed by a mob of men who did not like his teachings.

The problem with the Orthodox teaching identifying the false Messiah is that many Revelations from God faced the rejection, persecution and in many cases the death of the prophet including Jesus Christ condemned by the Jews.

Now, I have never come across a religious man who has claimed to be Christ who has turned out to gather as many followers as Baha'u'llah. So there must be something special about him. Perhaps if he merely claimed to be a prophet, I would have an easier time accepting his teachings. But since we know that there will be false Christs, I am reluctant to accept him than anything more than a "type" for Christ. And even types for Christ in the Bible never claimed to BE Christ.

This would be a problem for all the claims of the different religions including the LDS claim concerning whether they are true or false. It would be a misconception to believe that Baha'u'llah 'claimed to BE Christ.' It is more specific that Baha'u'llah claimed to be the promised Messiah for this age revealing the knowledge for the spiritual advancement of humanity. I believe that it is by the fruits and the message of the religion that you may determine its truth or falsehood. I have no problem comparing the fruits and spiritual message of Baha'u'llah with the great prophets and Messiahs of the past as the witness of a cyclic ever advancing spiritual civilization for humanity.

It almost sounds that Baha'u'llah is claiming that his arrival is the FIRST arrival of Christ, the Son of God. Is this a correct interpretation? I would need to see the support for your belief that his arrival is the first coming of Christ before I can address any futher comments. Now, OTOH, if his claim is that his arrival is the Second Coming of Christ, then the prophesies about Christ's Second Coming just do not appear to have been fulfilled either.

In the Baha'i view I do not believe that Baha'u'llah is the 'FIRST arrival of Christ,' The concept of the Messiah in the Baha'i Faith represents the medium of Revelation and Salvation for all the cultures and peoples of the earth throughout human history, both known and unknown Prophets of God. This cyclic process of Revelation centering around the Messianic concept represents an ever advancing spiritual civilization that underlies all the progressive advancements of physical civilizations of humanity. Knowledge including the sciences is a product of Revelation. The 'return of Christ' is a way of describing the prophetic relationship to Christianity. In Buddhism the return of the 'Enlightened One' or Buddha would be the concept from that religious perspective.

[harlan]

Hi Jo,

I appreciate the kindness and gentleness of your spirit. I also admire your burning desire for the truth. I agree that we all are in the same position of having limited ability to understand all that there is to understand about the mysteries of God and His ways. But if we back up and get a more universal perspective of religion as it has developed on this earth, we will begin to see patterns which are repeated throughout history and in all Dispensations. I'll mention some of them for you to ponder. One pattern is the appearance from age to age of Christ-like Figures Who claim to have received a Revelation from God. This Prophetic Figure is always opposed and denied by the religious leaders of His day. The early believers are mainly the powerless and simple people. The religious leaders use the prophecies of their Holy Book to "prove" that this new Prophet is not legitimate, not true. The new religion that is thus born in such humble circumstances grows and spreads and after a period of time is finally accepted by most of the people. But then there develops a difference of understanding concerning exactly what the Prophet meant. Various leaders gather followings and the religion fragments into sects, each claiming that it has the true interpretation of the Scriptures.

You asked if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the first coming of the Messiah. The answer is "no". He affirms the truth of Jesus as the promised Messiah of the Jews. "Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause,"--Baha'u'llah. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the coming of the Messiah according to the understanding of the Jewish leaders. Could it be possible that Christians could misunderstand the prophecies of the Second Coming? Why not? Christian leaders disagree with each other on so many issues, and yet they read the same Bible. The reason lies in whether prophecies are understood literally or metaphorically. And Jesus did not appoint anyone to be His official interpreter. Many people pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and still remain divided in their understanding. So that leaves all of us with the responsibility to use our own minds and hearts to search for the truth. I will not tell you what to believe, but I will share with you what I know about Baha'u'llah.

Concerning Baha'u'llah's lineage, He is descended from King David, and thus Abraham. Baha'u'llah is a descendant of KIng Cyrus the Great of Persia who is referred to by the prophet Isaiah as the "annointed", or "Christ" in Greek, because Cyrus' Jewish wife, from the family of King David, asked him to let her people return to Israel from captivity in Babylonia, and he did. He also paid the Jews to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. So Baha'u'llah is descended through this marriage of Cyrus and his Jewish wife. Baha'u'llah's family was of the nobility in Persia and thus descended from Cyrus.

In 2 John 1:7: "Many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who wil not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist." Baha'u'llah definitely acknowledges the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh, so He couldn't be the antichrist. In 1 John 4:1-3, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already." You're following this advise to "test the spirits" and now you know that Baha'u'llah is of God because He states that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. But I know that this is not enough for you, and it wouldn't be enough for me either.

Some of the fruits of Baha'u'llah are: (1)He established the equality of women and men. In fact, he says that if we have a son and a daughter and can afford to educate only one, then we should educate the daughter, for she is the first educator of the next generation. (2) Mankind should choose one language to be taught in all the schools of the world as an auxilliary language. Not having a common language is a cause for suspicion and prejudice. (3) He teaches that all of humanity is one family and that now is the time for the human family to realize and practice this unity. (4) We should get rid of all prejudices. (5) We should look at the good in others. (6) Science and religion are in harmony. Religion reveals the reality of our inner life, morals and ethics; science reveals the reality of the world of matter. (7) We should educate all children. (8) The nations of the world should unite in a similar way that the states of the United States are united in order to have world peace and harmony. (9) We should practice moderation in all things.

Another very interesting thing which Baha'u'llah did was to leave a written Covenant providing for an authorized interpreter of His teachings so that His Faith would not fragment into contending sects as all other religions had in the past. He also created an elected institution called the Universal House of Justice which is located at the Baha'i World Center in Israel which provides guidance for Baha'is and has the authority to legislate on any subject not covered in Baha'i Scripture. Baha'u'llah also purposely did not create any clergy or priesthood. In this age everyone is to be educated and read the Word of God for themselves and not rely on a special class of professional religious people.

This is a lot to ponder at one time. Please feel free to ask any questions.

Harlan

[jo7241974]

harlan;3170216]Hi Jo,

I appreciate the kindness and gentleness of your spirit. I also admire your burning desire for the truth. I agree that we all are in the same position of having limited ability to understand all that there is to understand about the mysteries of God and His ways. But if we back up and get a more universal perspective of religion as it has developed on this earth, we will begin to see patterns which are repeated throughout history and in all Dispensations. I'll mention some of them for you to ponder. One pattern is the appearance from age to age of Christ-like Figures Who claim to have received a Revelation from God. This Prophetic Figure is always opposed and denied by the religious leaders of His day. The early believers are mainly the powerless and simple people. The religious leaders use the prophecies of their Holy Book to "prove" that this new Prophet is not legitimate, not true. The new religion that is thus born in such humble circumstances grows and spreads and after a period of time is finally accepted by most of the people. But then there develops a difference of understanding concerning exactly what the Prophet meant. Various leaders gather followings and the religion fragments into sects, each claiming that it has the true interpretation of the Scriptures.

Hi Harlan,

You also have a kind and gentle spirit. This reveals to me that the Holy Spirit has been influencing you. BTW, your comments in the above paragraph are an excellent description of the history of relilgion among mankind.

You asked if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the first coming of the Messiah. The answer is "no". He affirms the truth of Jesus as the promised Messiah of the Jews. "Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause,"--Baha'u'llah. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the coming of the Messiah according to the understanding of the Jewish leaders. Could it be possible that Christians could misunderstand the prophecies of the Second Coming? Why not? Christian leaders disagree with each other on so many issues, and yet they read the same Bible. The reason lies in whether prophecies are understood literally or metaphorically. And Jesus did not appoint anyone to be His official interpreter. Many people pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and still remain divided in their understanding. So that leaves all of us with the responsibility to use our own minds and hearts to search for the truth. I will not tell you what to believe, but I will share with you what I know about Baha'u'llah.

The word "Messiah" can also be used as a title. If I am hearing you correctly, then Baha'u'llah has the title of "Messiah" for the group of people he was sent to. As you know, I believe that there can only be one Christ. Now, it doesn't matter what people know His name by. In fact, in Revelation we learn that He has a new name which only He knows. So then, the importance of His identity is in recognizing Him to be the Son of God, that He is the Creator of our world (under the guidance of the Father), and that He was crucified for the sins of ALL mankind. Therefore, not only has He provided the Atonement, He also overcame physical death. Thus, He has provided two things for mankind: a Way to return to the presence of Father, and immortality for ALL of us. At the end of the time period (as man understands time), when the earth is renewed, He will be the Judge for all of mankind and the deed to the earth will be given to Him. He will reign over the renewed earth forever and ever. It is my belief that the only group of people (and this would have been known ahead of time, before the foundation of our world) who could ever have killed their own God (as Christ IS the God of Abraham come in the flesh), were the Jews. Since a Savior was imperative in order for the Father's Plan of Salvation to come to fruition, it is the Jews whose lineage Jesus was born through. The Atonement, however, is for ALL of mankind; thus His suffering included the suffering of the sins of ALL peoples who are ever born on this earth.

I will share something that came to light the other night as we were studying Revelation. Most people make assumptions as to who the 24 elders are. They generally believe that twelve of them are the twelve Apostles whom Jesus called while He walked the earth. Now, since John is one of those very same Apostles, why didn't he recognize himself as one of them? He was close enough to them to see what they were wearing, but he says nothing about recognizing any of them. I only mention this because it is a curiosity. He was allowed, and actually was instructed to write down everything he saw in the vision EXCEPT for what he saw and heard from the seven thunders. It just seems odd to me, that if he had seen himself or others of the Apostles whom he served with, I would think he would have said so.

Concerning Baha'u'llah's lineage, He is descended from King David, and thus Abraham. Baha'u'llah is a descendant of KIng Cyrus the Great of Persia who is referred to by the prophet Isaiah as the "annointed", or "Christ" in Greek, because Cyrus' Jewish wife, from the family of King David, asked him to let her people return to Israel from captivity in Babylonia, and he did. He also paid the Jews to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. So Baha'u'llah is descended through this marriage of Cyrus and his Jewish wife. Baha'u'llah's family was of the nobility in Persia and thus descended from Cyrus.

Thank you for this information.

In 2 John 1:7: "Many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who wil not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist." Baha'u'llah definitely acknowledges the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh, so He couldn't be the antichrist. In 1 John 4:1-3, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already." You're following this advise to "test the spirits" and now you know that Baha'u'llah is of God because He states that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. But I know that this is not enough for you, and it wouldn't be enough for me either.

This should make it so simple. This is the same argument I use against those who dismiss Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God, although I include in this understanding that Christ be recognized as the Living Son of God, as well as His crucifixion and Resurrection. So, I am curious to know if, in recognizing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, does this include the understanding that Christ's crucifixion has Atoned for the sins of ALL mankind and that Christ overcame death and was Resurrected? There are other questions I would then ask, such as did Baha'u'llah teach that in order to be saved they need to believe in Christ (or whatever name He is known by), as opposed to believing in Baha'u'llah who did not Atone for the sins of the world?

Some of the fruits of Baha'u'llah are: (1)He established the equality of women and men. In fact, he says that if we have a son and a daughter and can afford to educate only one, then we should educate the daughter, for she is the first educator of the next generation. (2) Mankind should choose one language to be taught in all the schools of the world as an auxilliary language. Not having a common language is a cause for suspicion and prejudice. (3) He teaches that all of humanity is one family and that now is the time for the human family to realize and practice this unity. (4) We should get rid of all prejudices. (5) We should look at the good in others. (6) Science and religion are in harmony. Religion reveals the reality of our inner life, morals and ethics; science reveals the reality of the world of matter. (7) We should educate all children. (8) The nations of the world should unite in a similar way that the states of the United States are united in order to have world peace and harmony. (9) We should practice moderation in all things.

These are all in keeping with the two great commandments. I would like to comment, as an aside, about number "6". I believe that science and religion should be in harmony. However, too often I see that man has separated God from science; in fact they try to use science to disprove the existence or need for God. sigh.....

Another very interesting thing which Baha'u'llah did was to leave a written Covenant providing for an authorized interpreter of His teachings so that His Faith would not fragment into contending sects as all other religions had in the past. He also created an elected institution called the Universal House of Justice which is located at the Baha'i World Center in Israel which provides guidance for Baha'is and has the authority to legislate on any subject not covered in Baha'i Scripture. Baha'u'llah also purposely did not create any clergy or priesthood. In this age everyone is to be educated and read the Word of God for themselves and not rely on a special class of professional religious people.

This is interesting. In the LDS Church we have no paid clergy. Also, these lay positions (including our Bishops, Stake Presidents, etc.) are only temporary callings which usually last an average of about five years. We have individuals who are called through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to serve in various capacities. But none of them are professionally educated to fulfill those positions. Whatever callings we hold as members of the Church are served voluntarily and do not replace whatever else we are doing in our lives to maintain our livelihood. In fact, our Sacrament Meeting will be presided by a member of the Bishopric, but the talks are generally given by members of the congregation. Usually, there are three or four talks presented during each Sacrament Meeting. It is quite different from the denominations of orthodox Christianity. In our Sunday School and auxilliary organizations, everyone has the opportunity to serve and teach. Again, none of us have been professionally trained to do so. The main focus of what is taught in the Church is how to help us to live our lives while trying to follow Christ. Also, we are taught how to invite the Holy Spirit into everything that we do; thus learning how to discern the influence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are taught to NOT close our hearts and our minds to His influence. We are encouraged to seek guidance from the Holy Spirit rather than from the teachings of man. Again, this is quite differnt from the teachings of orthodoxy where almost the opposite is taught.

We believe the institutions teaching the Gospel of Christ had become so corrupt that this is why Jesus Restored His Church through His Prophet, Joseph Smith. It was during this same there was such a great religious fervor all over the earth. The Heavens were filled with the excitement and the joy felt by Heavenly beings at that time. I have no reason to believe that, as prophesied in the NT that in these latter days Prophets would return to the earth, that our young would see visions, etc. IOW, the earth is being prepared for the Second Coming of Christ. Inasmuch as all the tribes of Israel were scattered upon the earth, it would seem that God is providing a way for all of them to be regathered.

We also believe that since the time of the ancient Apostles, the Keys to the Holy Priesthood had been lost from the earth. This is the same higher Priesthood which Jesus bestowed upon His Apostles by which they were able to perform ordinances with the proper authority. The lessor Priesthood; i.e., the Priesthood of Aaron was held by John the Baptist which was required to perform the ordinance of baptism by water with the proper authority. We believe that John the Baptist visited Joseph Smith and restored the Aaronic Priesthood to the earth by bestowing it upon Joseph. Likewise, Peter, James and John visited Joseph Smith and restored the Melchizidek (Higher) Priesthood to the earth by bestowing it upon Joseph. Therefore, the proper authority and Keys to the Kingdom of God are once more upon the earth. Thus the ordinances are now being performed with the proper authority. The purpose of all of the Holy Temples we are building all over the earth is so that the Higher ordinances can be completed for all of mankind both for the living, and by proxy by someone who is now living in the flesh on behalf of the dead. This is also where the baptisms for the dead are performed with the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Therefore, it would not surprise me that Baha'u'llah does not teach a Priesthood since this could very well cause great confusion. Inasmuch as I believe these keys are held by the LDS but the ordinances are done on behalf of the whole world, this means that any who hold to the Bahai faith, will also benefit from these ordinances which, at some point, will be done on their behalf as well. As such, God's purposes are still being brought to pass.

This is a lot to ponder at one time. Please feel free to ask any questions.

Yes, this is a lot to ponder. At this moment I do have a major question. In my ignorance of your beliefs, I do not want to go to those who have told me things about your religion. I would rather have you make your explanation to me. I have been told by others that the Bahai faith is a pagan religion. In your opinion, why would they say this? Is there any merit to their statements; or, Is there just misunderstanding?

Thank you so much. May God watch over and bless you.

jo