The Great Apostacy!

[Cow Poke]

Red Rover, Red Rover
Let JO come over!

(let's see if that works)

It WORKED!!!!

cept we got LDSTrue instead of Jo.

[Sparko]

The Bishops the Apostles ordained had the proper authority… to be Bishops.

Bishops were to care for the flock within their respective areas as the Apostles traveled throughout the land establishing the Church. The Apostles and Seventy subsequently ordained Bishops to remain and care for the converts within their respective areas.

Neither the Seventy nor the Bishops possessed the Authority to appoint and ordain Apostles. Only Jesus has that authority and He has proven He does it personally or by the inspiration and voice of the Holy Ghost.

really? So then how were the Apostles in the current LDS church chosen? And why couldn't he have done the same with the Bishops in the first church?

[Sparko]

Exactly what are you attempting to fault the Apostle John for? It was never his responsibility to call and ordain Apostles.

He could not call and ordain another Apostle. If the Church was without Apostles to travel and establish the Church and ordain Bishops you should be faulting Jesus and not the Apostle John.

Jesus is the only one with that authority and He has proven He does it personally or by the inspiration and voice of the Holy Ghost. John could have participated in the calling and ordaining other Apostles once Jesus chose them as did Ananias however, John could not have initiated the call as that was Jesus' prerogative as evidenced in scripture.

So Jesus is the one who made his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles? Dang. You sure you want to go there?

[One Bad Pig]

The Bishops the Apostles ordained had the proper authority… to be Bishops.

Bishops were to care for the flock within their respective areas as the Apostles traveled throughout the land establishing the Church. The Apostles and Seventy subsequently ordained Bishops to remain and care for the converts within their respective areas.

Neither the Seventy nor the Bishops possessed the Authority to appoint and ordain Apostles. Only Jesus has that authority and He has proven He does it personally or by the inspiration and voice of the Holy Ghost.

So Jesus chose to let the early church become apostate by declining to ordain more apostles?

[nrajeff]

Kudos to RCN for an accurate overview of the LDS beliefs regarding the debilitating apostasy that befell Christendom. But apostasia (rebellion, revolution) was already a BAD problem, even back in the Apostolic Era, as certain NT verses show.

And we do NOT believe that all Christians apostatized. We claim that there came a time when Christendom was being led by unauthorized leaders. Once those men were in charge, they could alter doctrines and no one could stop them. Among the lay members were faithful believers, who were powerless to stop the corruption taking place at the top, since it was not a democracy--the lay members could not vote a corrupt bishop or pastor out of office. So the faithful lay members generally were not to blame for the dark times that descended on Christendom. There have always been faithful Christians on the planet from New Testament times up through today. But as Pastor Roger Williams said, 200 years before Joseph Smith:

"...there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

[LDSTrue]

So Jesus is the one who made his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles? Dang. You sure you want to go there?

You are attempting to put words in my mouth.

I would never say Jesus “made” "his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles” and that is not what I said!

It is a fact, man does not call and ordain Apostles until Jesus calls them either by personal appearance or by inspiration by the voice of the Holy Ghost.

IMHO, these scriptures could have something to do with Jesus not appointing new Apostles at the time;

Scripture Verse:

Mathew 23:37-39

[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

[39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And;

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 20:16 “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”

IMHO, the reason could have been the wholesale rejection of Jesus and His Apostles by the Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees (“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets…and ye would not!”)

Jesus didn’t make “So Jesus is the one who made his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles” anymore than Jesus "made" Israel worship idols.

Scripture Verse:

2 Kings 21:11 Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:

No, I would never say Jesus “made” "his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles”

I will say Jesus allowed "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee," to suffer the consequences of their acts.

[Sparko]

You are attempting to put words in my mouth.

I would never say Jesus “made” "his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles” and that is not what I said!

um yeah that is pretty much what you said. You said it was up to Jesus to appoint new Apostles and he didn't. If he didn't appoint new Apostles and the church became apostate, then it is because Jesus wanted it to become apostate. It had no choice. If Apostles were required and Jesus withheld them, then it's his fault the church went apostate.

You should think out the consequences of your comments before making them.

It is a fact, man does not call and ordain Apostles until Jesus calls them either by personal appearance or by inspiration by the voice of the Holy Ghost.

and apparently according to you Jesus didn't do that with the early church. So he is responsible for handing his own church over to Satan! Wow.

IMHO, the reason could have been the wholesale rejection of Jesus and His Apostles by the Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees (“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets…and ye would not!”)

So because the Jews rejected Jesus and his Apostles, Jesus gave his church over to Satan?

No, I would never say Jesus “made” "his own church apostate by not appointing new Apostles”

but that is what you did imply.

I will say Jesus allowed "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee," to suffer the consequences of their acts.

and now you say that because the Church was persecuted, that Jesus gave up on it and let it become apostate.

riiight.


when you find yourself in a hole, LDStrue, the first rule is to "stop digging"

[Bill the Cat]

So where was the man of sin if the apostasy happened?


Is there an echo here?

[Cow Poke]

But as Pastor Roger Williams said, 200 years before Joseph Smith:

"...there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

It is SUCH a blessing to find that the Mormons found a Baptist Pastor they can love. Are you aware of other interesting quotes by this same Pastor that might rain actually on your parade? You DO realize he was not our Pope, yes?

AND, this was not the "official" position of the Baptist Church, because it was not authorized by the First President and the Board of Deacons announcing "this is an official proclamation of the Baptist Church".

AND... before you accuse me of throwing Roger Williams under the bus.... I'm only giving you a hard time.

[Sparko]

So where was the man of sin if the apostasy happened?


Is there an echo here?

Helloooooo? oooo? ooo? ooo?

Hey maybe the Apostle JOHN was the man of sin!! He is immortal, and maybe it went to his head and he went to the dark side, and killed all of the other apostles and started the Catholic church to rule his empire. Then as history went along, he took on secret identities, like Napolean, Hitler, etc to try to take over the world.

[Cow Poke]

Helloooooo? oooo? ooo? ooo?

Hey maybe the Apostle JOHN was the man of sin!! He is immortal, and maybe it went to his head and he went to the dark side, and killed all of the other apostles and started the Catholic church to rule his empire. Then as history went along, he took on secret identities, like Napolean, Hitler, etc to try to take over the world.

And Luke Skywalker TRIED to stop him, but John/Napolean/Hitler/Darth took a deep scary breath and said "Luuuuuuke... I am your FAAAAAAAAAAATHER".

[Sparko]

And Luke Skywalker TRIED to stop him, but John/Napolean/Hitler/Darth took a deep scary breath and said "Luuuuuuke... I am your FAAAAAAAAAAATHER".

That would be Joe Skywalker Smith.

and eventually Joe fought the evil Apostle and killed him with his Gold Plated Saber of Light and Truth, took away the Keys to the Heavenly Kingdom that Darth John had stolen from the true church, and unlocked the gates of heaven and restored the Kingdom to Earth!

[Bill the Cat]

Kudos to RCN for an accurate overview of the LDS beliefs regarding the debilitating apostasy that befell Christendom. But apostasia (rebellion, revolution) was already a BAD problem, even back in the Apostolic Era, as certain NT verses show.

And we do NOT believe that all Christians apostatized. We claim that there came a time when Christendom was being led by unauthorized leaders. Once those men were in charge, they could alter doctrines and no one could stop them. Among the lay members were faithful believers, who were powerless to stop the corruption taking place at the top, since it was not a democracy--the lay members could not vote a corrupt bishop or pastor out of office. So the faithful lay members generally were not to blame for the dark times that descended on Christendom. There have always been faithful Christians on the planet from New Testament times up through today. But as Pastor Roger Williams said, 200 years before Joseph Smith:

"...there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

Haven't we already went over this Jeff?

Williams also said:

The two first principles and foundations of true religion, or worship of the true God in Christ, are repentance from dead works and faith toward God, before the doctrines of baptism or washing and the laying on of hands, which continue the ordinances and practises of worship; the want of which I conceive is the bane of millions of souls in England and all other nations professing to be Christian nations, who are brought by public authority to baptism and fellowship with God in ordinances of worship, before the saving work of repentance and a true turning to Jehovah.

[wonbyone]

Kudos to RCN for an accurate overview of the LDS beliefs regarding the debilitating apostasy that befell Christendom. But apostasia (rebellion, revolution) was already a BAD problem, even back in the Apostolic Era, as certain NT verses show.

And we do NOT believe that all Christians apostatized. We claim that there came a time when Christendom was being led by unauthorized leaders. Once those men were in charge, they could alter doctrines and no one could stop them. Among the lay members were faithful believers, who were powerless to stop the corruption taking place at the top, since it was not a democracy--the lay members could not vote a corrupt bishop or pastor out of office. So the faithful lay members generally were not to blame for the dark times that descended on Christendom. There have always been faithful Christians on the planet from New Testament times up through today. But as Pastor Roger Williams said, 200 years before Joseph Smith:

"...there is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But jeff doesn't that make laymen like us who agree with our church leaders apostate as well?

[wonbyone]

That would be Joe Skywalker Smith.

and eventually Joe fought the evil Apostle and killed him with his Gold Plated Saber of Light and Truth, took away the Keys to the Heavenly Kingdom that Darth John had stolen from the true church, and unlocked the gates of heaven and restored the Kingdom to Earth!