A great grandmother has been praying to Elrond thinking he was Saint Anthony

[Adrift]

http://www.independent.ie/entertainm...-35343480.html

A great grandmother has accidentally been praying to a Lord of the Rings figure, thinking it was Saint Anthony.

The discovery was made by a woman whose daughter's great grandmother prays to the figurine each day.
Upon inspection, however, the woman, who lives in Brazil, realised that the figurine was of Elrond, an elf from Lord of the Rings, and not Saint Anthony.

She posted the realisation to Facebook, and it has since gone viral with over 3.5k shares.



"The funniest discovery of 2016," she wrote.

When Elrond and Saint Anthony are compared to each other, we can kind of see how she got confused. Kind of.

[One Bad Pig]

I wonder which St. Anthony?

I don't think the misidentification matters much (it's not like I need to pray in front of a representation of a particular saint in order to pray to him/her), but it's understandable since her vision is probably not all that good.

FWIW, Orthodox icons of saints always identify the saint(s) portrayed; statues are generally frowned upon.

[Sea of red]

I think it's in poor taste for her daughter to share.

[One Bad Pig]

I think it's in poor taste for her daughter to share.

Well, yeah.

[Spartacus]

I should probably start by admitting that I found this story mildly amusing.

Now to take it waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously

It's probably incorrect to say that she prays to the figurine; she uses it as a devotional aide, certainly, but it's not itself an object of worship.

We might also that people can read fantasy books like LOTR, Narnia, or even Harry Potter in a way that leads them to reflect more deeply on their Christian faith, and that the latter two series were actually rather deliberately Christian. It's therefore somewhat fitting that the figurine of a character in a book series that had very deliberate Christian parallels might also be appropriated as an aide to faith... though I don't Tolkein had any St. Anthony in mind when he wrote about Elrond.

[Adrift]

I wonder which St. Anthony?

Anthony of Padua

[Adrift]

I should probably start by admitting that I found this story mildly amusing.

Now to take it waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously

It is funny. I posted it because I thought it was something we could all get a chuckle out of regardless of denomination, but yeah, I was also hoping that this would open up more serious discussion.

It's probably incorrect to say that she prays to the figurine; she uses it as a devotional aide, certainly, but it's not itself an object of worship.

"Pray" is actually the word the Brazilian granddaughter-in-law, Gabriela Brandão uses. "A bisavó da minha filha reza pra esse Santo Antônio todos os dias/My daughter's great-grandmother prays to this Saint Anthony every day". In my experiences, especially among the poor lay Catholics I knew growing up in a Portuguese and Irish neighborhood in New England, the distinction between praying to a figurine/statue, and using a figurine/statue as a devotional aid was fuzzy at best. I know there's official Church doctrine on the subject that goes into it in depth, but the lines seem to get crossed a bit in the pew.

We might also that people can read fantasy books like LOTR, Narnia, or even Harry Potter in a way that leads them to reflect more deeply on their Christian faith, and that the latter two series were actually rather deliberately Christian. It's therefore somewhat fitting that the figurine of a character in a book series that had very deliberate Christian parallels might also be appropriated as an aide to faith... though I don't Tolkein had any St. Anthony in mind when he wrote about Elrond.

I didn't know that Harry Potter was deliberately Christian. Someone in another comment chain suggested that St. Anthony is the patron saint of lost articles, and that a lot of Irish pray to him when they lose something, and in the same way, Elrond could be said to be the patron saint of lost rings.

[Cow Poke]

I never "got" the "praying to other people" thing, since I have access to God directly through Christ Jesus, but...

I think, however, that the most important thing is the intent and attitude of the heart.

[Adrift]

I never "got" the "praying to other people" thing, since I have access to God directly through Christ Jesus, but...

I think, however, that the most important thing is the intent and attitude of the heart.

The general idea is that you're petitioning someone to pray on your behalf. Same as you might ask a family member, or pastor, or friend to help pray on your behalf, you petition an especially holy person who is now physically dead, but with Christ in spirit to pray on your behalf, and because they are in some manner "closer" to God, your petitioning of them to pray on your behalf is...significant, in some way.

At least, that's the general sense of petitioning to saints that I've heard from EOs and RCs over the years. I may have some of it slightly wrong. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I do.

[Adrift]

I think, however, that the most important thing is the intent and attitude of the heart.

Right. The intent would seem to be more important than the aid. After all, an aid is just that...something that is supposed to guide you in correct behavior. BUT...I imagine lots of these aids are in some ways sanctified or blessed in the EO and RC (but probably especially in the EO), so that the icon or statue itself is said to hold a certain holy property. Ya'll let me know if I'm wrong about that.

[Cow Poke]

The general idea is that you're petitioning someone to pray on your behalf. Same as you might ask a family member, or pastor, or friend to help pray on your behalf, you petition an especially holy person who is now physically dead, but with Christ in spirit to pray on your behalf, and because they are in some manner "closer" to God, your petitioning of them to pray on your behalf is...significant, in some way.

At least, that's the general sense of petitioning to saints that I've heard from EOs and RCs over the years. I may have some of it slightly wrong. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I do.

Yeah, I get that -- I just don't see it the same, cause if I asked you to pray for my Dad (before he passed) I could have pretty quick acknowledgement of the fact that you have agreed to pray for him, and a fairly high degree of confidence that you'd follow through. Praying to (asking) a departed person or being --- I guess I just have to take it on faith that they're hearing and responding.

It's just that.... If I can address the Father's own Son to pray for me ... or the Spirit of the Living God to intercede with groanings I can't even understand.... and I have never seen the need to go beyond that. I guess it has to do with that "One God and one Mediator between God and Man, the man Christ Jesus" thing.

But, again, if somebody feels led to do otherwise, and they believe that 'works', more power to them.

[Adrift]

Yeah, I get that -- I just don't see it the same, cause if I asked you to pray for my Dad (before he passed) I could have pretty quick acknowledgement of the fact that you have agreed to pray for him, and a fairly high degree of confidence that you'd follow through. Praying to (asking) a departed person or being --- I guess I just have to take it on faith that they're hearing and responding.

I believe that's where the Hebrews 12:1 passage usually comes in, but yes, I agree.

It's just that.... If I can address the Father's own Son to pray for me ... or the Spirit of the Living God to intercede with groanings I can't even understand.... and I have never seen the need to go beyond that. I guess it has to do with that "One God and one Mediator between God and Man, the man Christ Jesus" thing.

But, again, if somebody feels led to do otherwise, and they believe that 'works', more power to them.

I think I would have less of an issue with it if it was explicit to the layperson that the item itself is powerless, and without sanctification. That it is purely through the power of their faith alone, and that of the person they are petitioning, that prayer is answered. The statue/icon is but an aid to that petitioning. But I'm afraid the reality is that a significant number of lay people have greatly misunderstood Catholic doctrine on the subject, and in the case of the EO at least, icons themselves are said to be sanctified.

[Sparko]

I never "got" the "praying to other people" thing, since I have access to God directly through Christ Jesus, but...

I think, however, that the most important thing is the intent and attitude of the heart.

That. why go to an underling who has to go to God when you can go to God yourself? I guess the thinking is that they can put in a good word for you? To an omnipotent God who knows more about you than you do? Who already knows your prayer before you even pray it?

[One Bad Pig]

Right. The intent would seem to be more important than the aid. After all, an aid is just that...something that is supposed to guide you in correct behavior. BUT...I imagine lots of these aids are in some ways sanctified or blessed in the EO and RC (but probably especially in the EO), so that the icon or statue itself is said to hold a certain holy property. Ya'll let me know if I'm wrong about that.

Icons are often blessed in the EO (although it is sometimes argued that this is not necessary), and they are considered holy, but we still do not pray to the icon - only before it. We are, in fact, encouraged NOT to direct our prayers to the image, but to the prototype.

[One Bad Pig]

That. why go to an underling who has to go to God when you can go to God yourself? I guess the thinking is that they can put in a good word for you? To an omnipotent God who knows more about you than you do? Who already knows your prayer before you even pray it?

So why pray at all, if God knows your need before you even ask?