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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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First Corinthians

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  • #16
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    John does not want this to be a debate thread, and I suspect he wants pointless bickering or name calling even less. John's original post already included the fact that ἐπικαλέω literally means 'to call upon'. I suggest another thread, either here in Biblical Languages or in a theology forum, would be a more appropriate place to carry on the wider debate about the potential christological and trinitarian implications of Paul's use of this verb here.
    Sorry, I didn't see this before I responded to John. I would be happy with your suggestion (though from the Guidelines for this Forum, I understood that this forum was for discussion).

    Elpis.
    Last edited by Elpis; 01-08-2017, 11:28 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Elpis View Post
      Sorry, I didn't see this before I responded to John. I would be happy with your suggestion (though from the Guidelines for this Forum, I understood that it was for discussion).

      Elpis.
      It's really up to John, and no reason to apologize to me. John's threads are rather unique here in that he toils at great length to help others learn the original languages of our holy scriptures. You will find many of his threads making extensive use of basic tools such as Zerwick and BDAG to go through books of the Bible verse by verse. Zerwick is typically used by students of Greek to begin to develop more fluency in reading the New Testament. It is neither authoritative nor comprehensive, but it does allow students to consult on a verse by verse basis vocabulary and grammatical pointers that they may not have learned in an introductory first-year course.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Elpis View Post
        Thanks for responding and for the (rather long) extract. I think we are agreed that the concept of “worshipping as God” is not inherent in the verb ἐπικαλέω and that such a conclusion is based on context.

        I obviously can’t respond to every argument in the extract but I believe the basic issue is the assumption that when OT quotations like “calling on the name of the LORD (YHWH)” are quoted in the NT in relation to Christ, they are identifying Christ as YHWH.

        This is problematical because all the NT writers make a distinction between God and Christ (not just between the Father and Christ) - on just about every page.

        However, not only does scripture distinguish between God and Christ, it also distinguishes between YHWH and Christ (Messiah). Not least is the fact that it is YHWH who says “I will be to him a father and he shall be to me a Son”. (2 Sam 7 and Heb 1:5)

        There is a really good analysis of the use of the term θεος in Murray Harris “Jesus as God”. I realise this is hi-jacking your thread, so if you would be interested in taking this discussion to another thread, I would be happy to dialogue with you on it.

        I would suggest the more likely (and scriptural) interpretation is that κυριος, when applied to the Lord (κυριος) Jesus Christ, relates to the Lordship that God bestowed on him (Acts 2:36). After all, this man has been raised to sit at the right hand of God (not just the right hand of the Father) (Acts 2:22.33).

        In Hope,

        Elpis.

        I am surprised that you insist on debating, despite the fact that I plainly stated in the OP ― and robrecht just now helpfully re-emphasised ― that my threads are not debate threads.

        Please do not ever again post in this thread, or in any other of my threads.

        I hereby appeal to the moderators to enforce this request.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
          I am surprised that you insist on debating, despite the fact that I plainly stated in the OP ― and robrecht just now helpfully re-emphasised ― that my threads are not debate threads.

          Please do not ever again post in this thread, or in any other of my threads.

          I hereby appeal to the moderators to enforce this request.
          I defer to the original poster will not post in this thread again. It was not my intention to cause offence.

          In Hope,

          Elpis.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Elpis View Post
            I defer to the original poster will not post in this thread again. It was not my intention to cause offence.

            In Hope,

            Elpis.
            Thank you!

            שָׁל֨וֹם

            Comment


            • #21
              1 corinthians 1:3

              Text: (NA27):
              χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

              Transliteration (Accordance):
              charis hymin kai eirēnē apo theou patros hēmōn kai kyriou Iēsou Christou.

              Translation (NRSV):
              Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

              Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
              χάρις : grace ; significantly replacing the usual Greek salutation καίρειν ; χάρις ... εἰρήνη combines and Christianizes Greek and Hebrew greetings καίρειν and שָׁל֨וֹם (shalom)

              Comment


              • #22
                First Corinthians 1:4

                Text: (NA27):
                Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῇ χάριτι τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ δοθείσῃ ὑμῖν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

                Transliteration (Accordance):
                Eucharistō tō̧ theō̧ mou pantote peri hymōn epi tȩ̄ chariti tou theou tȩ̄ dotheisȩ̄ hymin en Christō̧ Iēsou

                Translation (NRSV):
                I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that has been given you in Christ Jesus

                Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                εὐχαριστέω (τινί) : thank (one), give thanks.
                μου : my.
                πάντοτε : at all times.
                ἐπί : for, with dative indicating the ground for thanksgiving.
                δοθείσῃ : aorist passive participle of δίδωμι give.

                Comment


                • #23
                  1 Corinthians 1:5

                  Text: (NA27):
                  ὅτι ἐν παντὶ ἐπλουτίσθητε ἐν αὐτῷ, ἐν παντὶ λόγῳ καὶ πάσῃ γνώσει

                  Transliteration (Accordance):
                  hoti en panti eploutisthēte en autō̧, en panti logō̧ kai pasȩ̄ gnōsei

                  Translation (NRSV):
                  for in every way you have been enriched in him, in speech and knowledge of every kind―

                  Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                  παντί : everything.
                  ἐπλουτίσθητε : aorist passive of πλουτίζω enrich.
                  ἐν παντὶ λόγῳ : in all (= every kind of) speech (see chapters 12-14) or λόγος might denote the word of God, revelation, in which case λόγος καὶ γνῶσις might mean "knowledge of revealed truth".
                  γνῶσις : knowledge.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    1 Corinthians 1:6

                    Text: (NA27):
                    καθὼς τὸ μαρτύριον τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐβεβαιώθη ἐν ὑμῖν

                    Transliteration (Accordance):
                    kathōs to martyrion tou Christou ebebaiōthē en hymin

                    Translation (NRSV):
                    ―just as the testimony of Christ has been strengthened among you—

                    Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                    καθώς : causal for.
                    μαρτύριον : testimony, here that borne to Christ in Christian preaching.
                    ἐβεβαιώθη : aorist passive of βεβαιόω make firm (βέβαιος), confirm.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      1 Corinthians 1:7

                      Text: (NA27):
                      ὥστε ὑμᾶς μὴ ὑστερεῖσθαι ἐν μηδενὶ χαρίσματι ἀπεκδεχομένους τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

                      Transliteration (Accordance):
                      hōste hymas mē hystereisthai en mēdeni charismati apekdechomenous tēn apokalypsin tou kyriou hēmōn Iēsou Christou

                      Translation (NRSV):
                      so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                      ὑστερεῖσθαι : passive infinitive of ὑστερέω lack, ὑστερεῖσθαι ἐν be lacking in.
                      χάρισμα : gift of grace for the benefit of the community.
                      ἀπεκδεχομένους : participle of ἀπεκδέχομαι await.
                      ἀποκάλυψις : (< ἀποκαλύπτω un-cover) revelation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        1 corinthians 1:8

                        Text: (NA27):
                        ὃς καὶ βεβαιώσει ὑμᾶς ἕως τέλους ἀνεγκλήτους ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ [Χριστοῦ].

                        Transliteration (Accordance):
                        hos kai bebaiōsei hymas heōs telous anegklētous en tȩ̄ hēmera̧ tou kyriou hēmōn Iēsou [Christou].

                        Translation (NRSV):
                        He will also strengthen you to the end, so that you may be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

                        Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                        βεβαιώσει : future of βεβαιόω to make a person firm in commitment, establish, strengthen.
                        τέλος : end.
                        ἀνεγκλήτους : (ἀν- privitive* + ἐγκαλέω accuse) irreproachable.
                        ἐν : on.
                        τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ [Χριστοῦ] : ** see comment below in NIGTC The First Epistle to the Corinthians, by Anthony C. Thiselton (Eerdmans, 2000).
                        *(Zerwick) Privative: term used of the ἀ- which denies the presence of the quality or substance denoted by the word following. ἀ privilege has been taken over into the English language in such words as a-moral, a-septic, a-theist. When prefixed to words beginning with a vowel (both in Greek and in English) it becomes ἀν-, an-aemic, an-archist, an-onymous.
                        **(Thiselton) The end, ἕως τέλους, clearly corresponds to the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The eschatological context confirms the temporal reference, as against Schatter’s adverbial interpretation completely. Von der Osten-Sacken and Roberts note that in four cases (1 Cor 1:7–8; Phil 1:10; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Thess 1:6–10) an eschatological theme provides the transition into the main body of the letter. Paul assures the readers that at the last day they will be free from any charge, ἀνεγκλήτους. The Greek carries a range of meanings: blameless, irreproachable, and unimpeachable. In Oxyrhynchus Papyri of AD 20–50 a woman who has been deserted by her husband claims that she is blameless. This well exemplifies the meaning that no charge can be brought by way of accusation. This applies to the time which leads up to the day of the Lord as well as to being presented free from any charge on the day itself. Hence the word here belongs to the semantic domain of accusation and declarative verdict. Robertson and Plummer rightly translate unimpeachable, but Edwards’s free from any charge is a simpler form. Fee tends to merge the issue into questions about the Corinthians’ blameless “behavior.” But the primary emphasis falls upon the verdictive nature of the word. God pronounces a verdict; issues of the human moral condition remain secondary.

                        The final verdict occurs ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ [Χριστοῦ]. Paul transfers to Christ language about the day of the Lord in Old Testament traditions (e.g., Amos 5:18 and Zeph 1:14–18; cf. Rom 13:12). This is portrayed in the OT as a day of judgment. But this is not a matter only of rewards or penalties. As the righteous judge God puts all things right. This has a social as well as a forensic dimension, both reversing the fortunes of the wicked and vindicating the cry of the oppressed. But it is also forensic and personal: a public declaration of the verdict unimpeachable, i.e., of justification by grace. This can be anticipated by grace through appropriation (i.e., by faith), even in the present. Justification is an anticipation in advance of the verdict pronounced on the day of the Lord, in the faith-understanding that God keeps them firm and free from any charge up to and on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is extraordinarily wooden for Bultmann to claim that Paul inconsistently sees now God as judge, now Christ as judge. If the language oscillates, this is because the work of salvation is (here) a joint work, which later emerges as a trinitarian work. The main point is that as night dissolves into day (Rom 13:12) the hidden will become publicly visible and all that is wrong or that disrupts intimacy with God will be set right. It is unfortunate that the very clarity of this theme in Romans has tended to distract attention from its prominence in our epistle. The verdictive character of justification by grace is underlined by the role of definitive judgment on the day of the Lord in the OT, apocalyptic, and the NT.
                        Last edited by John Reece; 01-14-2017, 05:45 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          1 Corinthians 1:9

                          Text: (NA27):
                          πιστὸς ὁ θεός, δι᾿ οὗ ἐκλήθητε εἰς κοινωνίαν τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν.

                          Transliteration (Accordance):
                          pistos ho theos, di’ hou eklēthēte eis koinōnian tou huiou autou Iēsou Christou tou kyriou hēmōn.

                          Translation (NRSV):
                          God is faithful; by him you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

                          Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                          πιστός : faithful, to be relied on.
                          διά : here of principle cause.
                          ἐκλήθητε : aorist passive of καλέω call.
                          κοινωνία (τινός) : communion/fellowship with (one).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            1 Corinthians 1:10

                            Text: (NA27):
                            Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα, ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ.

                            Transliteration (Accordance):
                            Parakalō de hymas, adelphoi, dia tou onomatos tou kyriou hēmōn Iēsou Christou, hina to auto legēte pantes kai mē ȩ̄ en hymin schismata, ēte de katērtismenoi en tō̧ autō̧ noi kai en tȩ̄ autȩ̄ gnōmȩ̄.

                            Translation (NRSV):
                            Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.

                            Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                            Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος : I appeal to you in the name of... i.e. with the authority of...Jesus Christ.
                            ἵνα : for infinitive.
                            τὸ αὐτό : the same ; here with one voice, i.e. in harmony.
                            λέγητε : subjunctive of λέγω to express oneself orally or in written form, utter in words, say, tell, give expression to.
                            ᾖ, ἦτε : subjunctive of εἰμί be, exist.
                            σχίσμα : (< σχίζω split, tear apart) division.
                            κατηρτισμένοι : perfect passive participle of καταρτίζω fit together ; put in order ; complete, κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ consolidated in identity of...and of...
                            νοῦς, νοός, νοΐ, νοῦν, ὁ : mind.
                            γνώμη : opinion ; purpose ; resolve.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              1 Corinthians 1:11

                              Text: (NA27):
                              ἐδηλώθη γάρ μοι περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοί μου, ὑπὸ τῶν Χλόης ὅτι ἔριδες ἐν ὑμῖν εἰσιν.

                              Transliteration (Accordance):
                              edēlōthē gar moi peri hymōn, adelphoi mou, hypo tōn Chloēs hoti erides en hymin eisin.

                              Translation (NRSV):
                              For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters.

                              Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                              ἐδηλώθη : aorist passive of δηλόω make clear (δῆλος), reveal.
                              οἱ Χλόης : those of Chloe's household.
                              ἔρις, -ιδος, ἡ : rivalry.

                              Comment

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