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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Compatibalism

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    If you realize that it's a premature, ill-informed, and poorly constructed opinion, then what it the point of sharing it? Imagine, for a moment, that someone said, "I haven't given a whole lot of thought to non-Euclidean geometry, but I just Googled it, and it sounds like rubbish to me." What would you think?
    Oh knock it off BP. From what I do know about it, its sounds like rubbish. Is that okay?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Oh knock it off BP. From what I do know about it, its sounds like rubbish. Is that okay?
      I'm really not trying to be insulting or offensive, here. I'm honestly wondering: what is the point in sharing an opinion on the quality of a philosophical position, when you fully admit that the opinion is premature, ill-formed, and poorly constructed?

      If I share my opinion on the quality of a thing, it is usually an attempt to be persuasive. For example, when I told my friend, "The hamburgers at Wendy's taste like garbage," I did so with the intention of swaying him away from purchasing a hamburger at Wendy's because I do not like the way that they taste, and I felt confident that my friend would not like the way that they taste, either. Now, if I had never eaten a Wendy's hamburger before-- or, perhaps, if I had very briefly smelled one without tasting it-- but I still told my friend that they probably taste like garbage, my opinion wouldn't really mean very much to him.

      So, why share an opinion about something's quality which you know is made in ignorance?
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
        I do call our dogs free. Why does the fact that a dog's choices are freely made, on this definition, imply that this is not a meaningful description of freedom?
        If our choices are determined by antecedent conditions and biology in what sense are they free? How do you define freedom?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          If our choices are determined by antecedent conditions and biology in what sense are they free? How do you define freedom?
          They are "free" in that they are made by the actor in question, and not imparted upon that actor by some other agent.

          Certainly, even in Libertarian Freedom, Free Will does not imply that an actor can resolve a choice entirely without constraint from the world around him. Even in Libertarian Freedom, an actor's choices are constrained by antecedent conditions and biology. So, the question becomes, "at what point do constraints from the world around the actor violate that actor's Free Will?"
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            They are "free" in that they are made by the actor in question, and not imparted upon that actor by some other agent.
            Yes, but all our acts are still determined by antecedent conditions and biology.

            Certainly, even in Libertarian Freedom, Free Will does not imply that an actor can resolve a choice entirely without constraint from the world around him. Even in Libertarian Freedom, an actor's choices are constrained by antecedent conditions and biology. So, the question becomes, "at what point do constraints from the world around the actor violate that actor's Free Will?"
            This is generally true, and no libertarian knows exactly where we can draw the line, yet we do believe that there is a line and that not all choices are determined by antecedent conditions and biology.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              This is generally true, and no libertarian knows exactly where we can draw the line, yet we do believe that there is a line and that not all choices are determined by antecedent conditions and biology.
              Why do you believe that such a line exists?
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                While I certainly have different reasoning behind my compatibilism, it is certainly comforting to know that I'm not alone on these boards!
                It seems like there are a variety of differing definitions of compatibilism. Is there any one that you consider to be better than the others?
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  Why do you believe that such a line exists?
                  Experience. I believe I am perfectly free to choose to eat that extra piece of cake or not. That in experience I do have the power of contrary choice.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    I have met Compatibilists who remain agnostic as regards libertarian freedom. They basically do not think that libertarian freedom is a necessary condition of Free Will, but neither are they convinced that libertarian freedom should be rejected.
                    In my reading of different sources there is a significant gray area between Libertarian Free Will and Compatibilism. I believe Libertarian Free Will acknowledges some aspects of Determinism, but how much is not always clear. Some want define Compatabilism narrowly and that is not reality, and my view is similar to yours for scientific reasons not religious presuppositions. The Theological issues of Libertarian Free versus the Deterministic views like Calvinism, are different issues and agenda than the views of science concerning the nature of human will. The issue of the choice to believe and be saved or not believe and not be saved, and whether humans have what degree of Free Will to sin or not sin are important factors for Theological considerations.

                    Science is basically indifferent to such theological presuppositions concerning the degree of Free Will humans may have. Science has determined that much of our decision making process is determined within certain ranges of choice based on evolved behavior necessary for survival, and the influence of culture on choices, the actual degree of Free Will has not been determined. I believe we have a 'Will' but it is not necessarily free.

                    In terms of choice of belief it is abundantly apparent that the primary motive is the human desire for a 'sense of belonging' in a culturally motivated context. By far one's choice is within the culture they are raised, or determined by the culture or religion they are in. The context of moral and ethical standards and what is considered 'sin,' willful choices to follow or not follow the rules, and violations of morals is dependent on what belief on chooses.

                    Some issues that is seriously not considered from the perspective of many traditional belief systems that believe in a more libertarian Free Will such as Mental Illness, both inherited and environmentally induced.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      It seems like there are a variety of differing definitions of compatibilism. Is there any one that you consider to be better than the others?
                      I tend to agree most with the Reasons-Responsive view, personally, which takes into account whether an actor responds to some motivating factor in his actions to help determine whether or not that act was freely willed. The Hierarchical view, which I think is the most common Compatibilist view these days, seems a bit too recursive for my tastes, and can easily get bogged down in arguments about whether an n-th order desire truly constitutes a free-will volition.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Experience. I believe I am perfectly free to choose to eat that extra piece of cake or not. That in experience I do have the power of contrary choice.
                        Experience just tells us the choices we've already made. It tells us nothing about whether or not those choices were libertarian.
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          Experience just tells us the choices we've already made. It tells us nothing about whether or not those choices were libertarian.
                          No it doesn't, when faced with the cake example I clearly have the choice to eat or not eat. Nothing determines my choice expect my will. I can even override my desire for the cake, which I have. So I have no reason to believe that choice was determined by antecedent conditions. That my choice wasn't free at that moment.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            No it doesn't, when faced with the cake example I clearly have the choice to eat or not eat. Nothing determines my choice expect my will. I can even override my desire for the cake, which I have. So I have no reason to believe that choice was determined by antecedent conditions. That my choice wasn't free at that moment.
                            You're just question begging, here. You're presuming that nothing determines your choice except your will in order to conclude that nothing determines your choice except your will.
                            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                              You're just question begging, here. You're presuming that nothing determines your choice except your will in order to conclude that nothing determines your choice except your will.
                              If my rational will doesn't do the choosing what does?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                If my rational will doesn't do the choosing what does?
                                I didn't say your rational will doesn't do the choosing. I said that you are presuming that nothing determines that choice in order to conclude that nothing determines that choice. Whether the choice is determined or not, the choice is still made by your will.
                                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                                Comment

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