Compatibalism

[seer]

I didn't say your rational will doesn't do the choosing. I said that you are presuming that nothing determines that choice in order to conclude that nothing determines that choice. Whether the choice is determined or not, the choice is still made by your will.

Well why wouldn't I assume my will is free?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Well why wouldn't I assume my will is free [in the Libertarian sense]?

Why would you assume it is free in the Libertarian sense?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Because I obviously wasn't trying to be persuasive, I was just sharing an opinion on the notion of compatibilism based I what I do know of determinism and free willl. That the two could be compatible seems ludicrous. Not a big deal.

I know you were sharing an opinion. I'm asking why you were sharing that opinion.

[shunyadragon]

Because you're not taking into account the many 'cake-choosing' experiences in the past which subconsciously affect your choice on this occasion.

. . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined.

[Tassman]

. . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined.

Indeed!

[shunyadragon]

Indeed!

. . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined by previous changes of a range of predetermined choices that determined what cakes are available to choose from. There, of course, will be Free Will choices within a range of possible choices.

[Jedidiah]

That is the problem, the definition of free will. That is why we had to add libertarian.The power of contrary choice which Compatibilism denies.

Can you explain this a bit. I believe that I am able to choose to do whatever I am able to do. I am limited only by physical or psychological abilities. I can not fly on my own, I have mental limitations. Beyond that I am free to make what choice I care to.

[seer]

Can you explain this a bit. I believe that I am able to choose to do whatever I am able to do. I am limited only by physical or psychological abilities. I can not fly on my own, I have mental limitations. Beyond that I am free to make what choice I care to.

I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.

[Littlejoe]

Why would you assume it is free in the Libertarian sense?

completely determined by causes outside of themselves. So, in any choice a person makes, a libertarian free will proponent will hold that the agent must have had the power to choose differently if their choice is to be truly free and morally responsible (the power of contrary choice).

[shunyadragon]

I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.

I believe our choices are to a large extent pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology, but we do have a range of possible choices in many but not all situations.

[Jedidiah]

I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.

There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.

[Littlejoe]

There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.

You are certainly entitled to your view...it's my view that this would be "paradoxical". This to me is like the old... "God able to make a rock so big even He can't move it"...It just doesn't make sense...

[Jude]

Interesting topic to think about. It seems to me that an important component in the process would be goal/motive. That teleology is a most important link in the free will/deterministic connection. That it comes down to what outcome do we want. My ability to eat a piece of cake may be removed from me if I want to be an Olympic sprinter or simply to improve my chances of living longer But it is still a determined fact that I will die some day . We may argue over humanity's affect on climate change and thus inhibit free will with laws, but ultimately we face heat death in the distant future regardless. So it seems to me that what we want to create individually and collectively is the "determining" factor in our free will choices. What we really, really desire in our heart will determine our choices so for me an interesting question is what biological/environmental factors shape those desires? Can they be changed? How? What we believe to be true, our "faith", is hugely important. At least for me, when I think along these lines it strengthens my faith in God and that the Bible is truth.

[seer]

There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.

OK, that is fine, that was Spurgeon's position.

Let me quote him:

[seer]

Interesting topic to think about. It seems to me that an important component in the process would be goal/motive. That teleology is a most important link in the free will/deterministic connection. That it comes down to what outcome do we want. My ability to eat a piece of cake may be removed from me if I want to be an Olympic sprinter or simply to improve my chances of living longer But it is still a determined fact that I will die some day . We may argue over humanity's affect on climate change and thus inhibit free will with laws, but ultimately we face heat death in the distant future regardless. So it seems to me that what we want to create individually and collectively is the "determining" factor in our free will choices. What we really, really desire in our heart will determine our choices so for me an interesting question is what biological/environmental factors shape those desires? Can they be changed? How? What we believe to be true, our "faith", is hugely important. At least for me, when I think along these lines it strengthens my faith in God and that the Bible is truth.

It is interesting, even if determinism is true I think we only have two possible sources for that effect. The cold, uncaring, non rational forces of nature or a rational, loving and just Mind.