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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Compatibalism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    I didn't say your rational will doesn't do the choosing. I said that you are presuming that nothing determines that choice in order to conclude that nothing determines that choice. Whether the choice is determined or not, the choice is still made by your will.
    Well why wouldn't I assume my will is free?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well why wouldn't I assume my will is free [in the Libertarian sense]?
      Why would you assume it is free in the Libertarian sense?
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Because I obviously wasn't trying to be persuasive, I was just sharing an opinion on the notion of compatibilism based I what I do know of determinism and free willl. That the two could be compatible seems ludicrous. Not a big deal.
        I know you were sharing an opinion. I'm asking why you were sharing that opinion.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Because you're not taking into account the many 'cake-choosing' experiences in the past which subconsciously affect your choice on this occasion.
          . . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            . . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined.
            Indeed!
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Indeed!
              . . . and all possible choices of cake are predetermined by previous changes of a range of predetermined choices that determined what cakes are available to choose from. There, of course, will be Free Will choices within a range of possible choices.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-07-2017, 10:15 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                That is the problem, the definition of free will. That is why we had to add libertarian.The power of contrary choice which Compatibilism denies.
                Can you explain this a bit. I believe that I am able to choose to do whatever I am able to do. I am limited only by physical or psychological abilities. I can not fly on my own, I have mental limitations. Beyond that I am free to make what choice I care to.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  Can you explain this a bit. I believe that I am able to choose to do whatever I am able to do. I am limited only by physical or psychological abilities. I can not fly on my own, I have mental limitations. Beyond that I am free to make what choice I care to.
                  I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    Why would you assume it is free in the Libertarian sense?
                    Most proponents of Libertarian Free will (that I know of at least) operate under the premise that a person is truly free and morally responsible for their choices if and only if it resides in a person's power to determine his or her own choices. In other words, their decisions can’t be completely determined by causes outside of themselves. So, in any choice a person makes, a libertarian free will proponent will hold that the agent must have had the power to choose differently if their choice is to be truly free and morally responsible (the power of contrary choice).
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.
                      I believe our choices are to a large extent pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology, but we do have a range of possible choices in many but not all situations.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I agree that our freedom is not absolute, just significant. I think the question comes down to whether you believe that our choices are pre-determined by antecedent conditions and biology.
                        There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.
                          You are certainly entitled to your view...it's my view that this would be "paradoxical". This to me is like the old... "God able to make a rock so big even He can't move it"...It just doesn't make sense...
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Interesting topic to think about. It seems to me that an important component in the process would be goal/motive. That teleology is a most important link in the free will/deterministic connection. That it comes down to what outcome do we want. My ability to eat a piece of cake may be removed from me if I want to be an Olympic sprinter or simply to improve my chances of living longer But it is still a determined fact that I will die some day . We may argue over humanity's affect on climate change and thus inhibit free will with laws, but ultimately we face heat death in the distant future regardless. So it seems to me that what we want to create individually and collectively is the "determining" factor in our free will choices. What we really, really desire in our heart will determine our choices so for me an interesting question is what biological/environmental factors shape those desires? Can they be changed? How? What we believe to be true, our "faith", is hugely important. At least for me, when I think along these lines it strengthens my faith in God and that the Bible is truth.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              There are certainly forces in the world which influence us. That does not amount to predetermination. It is my view that God is able to give us full free will (as discussed above) and still predestine us. He is simply that great.
                              OK, that is fine, that was Spurgeon's position.

                              Let me quote him:

                              The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

                              I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that “it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”

                              I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.

                              Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

                              That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

                              If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

                              These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jude View Post
                                Interesting topic to think about. It seems to me that an important component in the process would be goal/motive. That teleology is a most important link in the free will/deterministic connection. That it comes down to what outcome do we want. My ability to eat a piece of cake may be removed from me if I want to be an Olympic sprinter or simply to improve my chances of living longer But it is still a determined fact that I will die some day . We may argue over humanity's affect on climate change and thus inhibit free will with laws, but ultimately we face heat death in the distant future regardless. So it seems to me that what we want to create individually and collectively is the "determining" factor in our free will choices. What we really, really desire in our heart will determine our choices so for me an interesting question is what biological/environmental factors shape those desires? Can they be changed? How? What we believe to be true, our "faith", is hugely important. At least for me, when I think along these lines it strengthens my faith in God and that the Bible is truth.
                                It is interesting, even if determinism is true I think we only have two possible sources for that effect. The cold, uncaring, non rational forces of nature or a rational, loving and just Mind.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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