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Yom Kippur - "not conditioned on anything"?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NormATive View Post
    Very good, OingoBoingo! The only thing you missed is that I was raised in a Baptist Christian family. And, it has only been about 8 years since converting to Judaism. I'm not THAT old!

    BTW, I am non-theist, not atheist. There is a difference. I do not "know" there is no G-d. I'm just more convinced there isn't than that there is, and life gets along just fine without a deity.

    Also, I find value in the secular side of religious philosophy. The moral ideas taught by Hillel and Jesus are examples that come to mind. Again, belief in theism is not necessary to take advantage of these philosophies.

    NORM

    This may be off-topic. I apologize....(I am Muslim but interested in Judaism)

    Can you elaborate on "the moral ideas taught by Hillel an Jesus"...?....

    If you were raised Christian, did you feel surprise/dissonance at how different Judaism was?---if so, how did you deal with it?

    My understanding may be incorrect, but in a conversation with a Jewish person, I understood that after death, the souls go to a "place"/home explained to me as a womb/protected resting place, place of sleep until Judgement..?.....what is your opinion? (In Islam such a place is called Barzakh(= barrier, separation))

    Could you explain the concept of Shekhina (It is used in the Quran and is translated as spirit/state of tranquility/peace, but I understand it is more complex concept in Judaism ?)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      Precisely why we do not rely on the Tanakh alone. The ultra orthodox (our version of your fundamentalists) believe the Tanakh is superior to the Talmud, and many interpret it literally. You are like our fundamentalists in your approach to the Bible. It is a book that does not evolve along with humanity, and you are OK with that.
      That is correct. The Tanakh is God's own word about God, whereas the Talmud is man's word. No comparison as to which should have primacy.

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Norm,

        I think you would find attending a Yom Kippur service for yourself very enlightening - and beautiful. The symbolism is intense. It is very difficult concept to explain to folks who have a preconceived notion of what the Jewish understanding of "atonement" means. You are interpreting the word from your own Christian perspective. It is 180 degrees opposite.
        To speak of unconditional atonement on Yom Kippur is to miss the symbolic import of the blood of the bull that's brought into the most holy place to affect the atonement. The atonement is not there if the blood is not spilled. The blood is the symbol related to God's willingness and ability to forgive the sins. The blood of the bull is a substitutionary atonement . . . substituting for the death of the sinner. . . . Which is to say that there is a condition to forgiving sins. Blood must be spilled. If not the blood of the sinner, then substitutionary blood.
        Last edited by Xtian Rabinovich; 04-13-2014, 02:33 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi Norm,

          This is where having a document like the Talmud is superior to reliance on scripture alone. The Tanakh, if you read it chronologically, clearly shows an evolution in how we view G-d. It is important to realize that the Tanakh is man's idea of who and what G-d is.
          The Tanakh must be interpreted. It's nothing without interpretation; and eisegesis will always legitimately affect exegesis. The Talmud is one interpretation, the New Testament is another. Both are based on the Torah primarily, and the Tanakh secondarily.

          The problem with the Talmud is that it's based on the punctuation added to the consonantal text and codified by the Masoretes. But when the Torah was given to Moses it was strictly forbidden for any punctuation to be added to the text. The un-pointed text is a cipher and not a readable text. The Masortic Text (MT) is based on one version of the Torah such that the Talmud itself becomes extremely limited (interpretively) according to the placement of the punctuation.

          Jesus often said, you've heard it said (and then he quotes the interpretation that is codified in the Talmud) but I tell you. . . . This is what got Jesus nailed down. I.e., his pointing out that by nailing down the consonants with one set of points (vowels and punctuation) the Pharisees had crucified the spirit of the Torah so that they could control the authorized reading even as they sought to control him. When he wouldn't be controlled, they added points to his body, even as they had previously nailed down the body of the Torah text (against the very commandment not to add points). They silenced the living body of the Torah and nailed down what was previously a living meaning subject to almost infinite interpretation. Then they nailed down the virgin born Jew who pointed out their pin-headed abused of the sacred Torah text.
          Last edited by Xtian Rabinovich; 04-13-2014, 02:57 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi OingoBoingo,

            Oh okay. Glad I got all of the pertinent details. I was in a similar situation finding out about my Jewish heritage on my mother's side. I've been to synagogue, and am fascinated with ancient Jewish history, but never converted.
            A Christian converting to Judaism because he finds out his mother is Jewish is like a man reading Darwin's Origin of the Species only to begin a diet primarily of bananas. It's simply bananas!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
              Hi OingoBoingo,



              A Christian converting to Judaism because he finds out his mother is Jewish is like a man reading Darwin's Origin of the Species only to begin a diet primarily of bananas. It's simply bananas!
              That made me chuckle.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                This may be off-topic. I apologize....(I am Muslim but interested in Judaism)

                Can you elaborate on "the moral ideas taught by Hillel an Jesus"...?....
                Sure, here is a little story about Hillel that will nicely illustrate the point:

                One of famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

                "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"
                Like Hillel before him, Jesus often taught that one must internalize the Law rather than blindly follow it.

                Originally posted by siam View Post
                If you were raised Christian, did you feel surprise/dissonance at how different Judaism was?---if so, how did you deal with it?
                Yes. I had been taught to believe that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity is a western philosophy, while Judaism (as is Islam) is an eastern philosophy. The approach to the nature of mankind, sin, the nature of G-d, and the relationship between G-d and mankind is radically different. I felt like I had been on the very edge of "something" my whole life, but without much more than a tiny glimpse of it being revealed. My favorite part of the Christian Testament has always been the Sermon on the Mount. That's the closest the Christian Testament comes to Judaism.

                Originally posted by siam View Post
                My understanding may be incorrect, but in a conversation with a Jewish person, I understood that after death, the souls go to a "place"/home explained to me as a womb/protected resting place, place of sleep until Judgement..?.....what is your opinion? (In Islam such a place is called Barzakh(= barrier, separation))
                Where to begin! I have heard of this, but not very often. Mostly, Jews have traditionally believed that when one dies, he or she goes to GeHinnom or Sh'eol, a place of purification (some say we are tormented by devils of our own creation) that cannot last more than 12 months before then going to Gan Eden or Olam-Ha-Ba (the World to Come). Gan Eden has been translated as Garden of Eden, but it's not the same place as where Adam and Eve lived (it's complicated!).

                I am Reformed, so we don't really have much to say about the afterlife. Our focus is only on living this life properly - tikkun olam (mending of this world).

                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Could you explain the concept of Shekhina (It is used in the Quran and is translated as spirit/state of tranquility/peace, but I understand it is more complex concept in Judaism ?)
                The Shekhina is something the Kabbal cult groups are into. There is an obscure couple of places in the Tanakh and Talmud that makes mention of a male / female Spirit that was the being used to "breathe the breath of life in to mankind." It's really not something we hear too much about in the Reformed community. Again, it's all about the here and now.

                I hope this helps.

                NORM
                When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                  That is correct. The Tanakh is God's own word about God, whereas the Talmud is man's word. No comparison as to which should have primacy.
                  The Tanakh was also written by men. The Talmud more accurately describes humanity.

                  NORM
                  When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                    Hi Norm,



                    To speak of unconditional atonement on Yom Kippur is to miss the symbolic import of the blood of the bull that's brought into the most holy place to affect the atonement. The atonement is not there if the blood is not spilled. The blood is the symbol related to God's willingness and ability to forgive the sins. The blood of the bull is a substitutionary atonement . . . substituting for the death of the sinner. . . . Which is to say that there is a condition to forgiving sins. Blood must be spilled. If not the blood of the sinner, then substitutionary blood.
                    Whoa, dude!!! We haven't sacrificed animals for thousands of years. And, you have it all wrong. The sacrifice is just that - a sacrifice. Think of it like you do your tithe (actually that's where you get your idea of a tithe from - it means one tenth of your livestock, grain, etc.). You give it because you are thankful that G-d has given you all that you have.

                    You've totally distorted Yom Kippur. G-d ALWAYS forgives sins. That's what G-d does! The blood is because that's what falls out when you slit the animal's neck. It is simply not true that forgiveness can only come through "blood sacrifice." This is confusing the "ritual" for the action. The blood is a symbol that an animal was sacrificed and that it was not consumed (because that would be a sin). In I Kings 8:46-50, prayer is offered as an alternative to sacrifice.

                    And, this is how Jews do the "ritual" today - offering prayers to G-d instead of animal sacrifice.

                    Where did you get all that crap?

                    NORM
                    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                      Hi Norm,



                      The Tanakh must be interpreted. It's nothing without interpretation; and eisegesis will always legitimately affect exegesis. The Talmud is one interpretation, the New Testament is another. Both are based on the Torah primarily, and the Tanakh secondarily.

                      The problem with the Talmud is that it's based on the punctuation added to the consonantal text and codified by the Masoretes. But when the Torah was given to Moses it was strictly forbidden for any punctuation to be added to the text. The un-pointed text is a cipher and not a readable text. The Masortic Text (MT) is based on one version of the Torah such that the Talmud itself becomes extremely limited (interpretively) according to the placement of the punctuation.

                      Jesus often said, you've heard it said (and then he quotes the interpretation that is codified in the Talmud) but I tell you. . . . This is what got Jesus nailed down. I.e., his pointing out that by nailing down the consonants with one set of points (vowels and punctuation) the Pharisees had crucified the spirit of the Torah so that they could control the authorized reading even as they sought to control him. When he wouldn't be controlled, they added points to his body, even as they had previously nailed down the body of the Torah text (against the very commandment not to add points). They silenced the living body of the Torah and nailed down what was previously a living meaning subject to almost infinite interpretation. Then they nailed down the virgin born Jew who pointed out their pin-headed abused of the sacred Torah text.
                      This is a very interesting commentary. I am wondering if this is coming from you, or from someone else. I've heard something eerily similar once from a guy who was high up in the J4J movement of the 70s and 80s. He actually posited trying to subvert a local synagogue by planting Christian spies in their Shul in order to convert children to Christ.

                      Nevertheless, even though I strongly disagreed with his evangelistic attempts, I did think he had some valid assertions regarding the difference between the Sadducees and the Pharisees (Jesus). I think Jesus was right on in his contempt for the self-righteous, legalistic, Shammai school.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                        Hi OingoBoingo,



                        A Christian converting to Judaism because he finds out his mother is Jewish is like a man reading Darwin's Origin of the Species only to begin a diet primarily of bananas. It's simply bananas!
                        Funny, as I was reading through some of your other posts in the language section, I was wondering how someone who can actually understand the Hebrew (better than me!) could not see the beauty and simplicity of Judaism.

                        NORM
                        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Norm, if you're a non-theist, why do you make references to Judaism and God as though you are still a theist? Force of habit, or something else?

                          For example, in post #22 you write, "I am Reformed, so we don't really have much to say about the afterlife.", but as a non-theist, even if the Reformed had something to say about the afterlife, you personally, wouldn't have anything to say about it. Correct? Also, how can you be a Reformed Jew and also a non-theist? I understand you're ethnically Jewish, but wouldn't putting "Reformed" in front of word "Jew" indicate that you're implying that you're also religiously Jewish? How can you be religious if you don't believe in God (and presumably all of the supernatural elements that go with Judaism)? Also in a number of your posts you spell God, "G-d", which is a religious way of not taking the name of the Lord in vain, and/or to show his name honor and reverence (don't want to mistakenly erase the name of God and all that), but as a non-theist, God is a mythological character, no more real than Thor or Odin. Why bother with the hyphen?

                          In post #24 you write, "In I Kings 8:46-50, prayer is offered as an alternative to sacrifice. And, this is how Jews do the "ritual" today - offering prayers to G-d instead of animal sacrifice."
                          But isn't it true that there are Jews who look forward to the rebuilding of the temple and a return to the sacrifice system?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                            Norm, if you're a non-theist, why do you make references to Judaism and God as though you are still a theist? Force of habit, or something else?
                            Because he wants to sustain a Jewish critique of Christianity.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              Because he wants to sustain a Jewish critique of Christianity.
                              I think there are valid Jewish critiques of Christianity. I believe both sides lost out as the religions grew apart. Over time, we lost touch with much of the context that is so helpful in understanding the teachings of Jesus.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                I think there are valid Jewish critiques of Christianity. I believe both sides lost out as the religions grew apart. Over time, we lost touch with much of the context that is so helpful in understanding the teachings of Jesus.
                                Oh, I agree - if we grant that "Christianity" needs sharper definition in such a context. But is quite interesting, to say the least, for an agnostic to do the type of Jewish critique that NormAtive has.

                                Comment

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