Yom Kippur - "not conditioned on anything"?

[OingoBoingo]

I think there are valid Jewish critiques of Christianity. I believe both sides lost out as the religions grew apart. Over time, we lost touch with much of the context that is so helpful in understanding the teachings of Jesus.

Well, not only grew apart, but also evolved in their own right. Judaism in the common period looks radically different to the Judaism of the 1st century, and no doubt the Judaism of the 1st century looked radically different to the Hebrew religion a millennium before then. Likewise, modern Christianity looks quite different to what we read about of the early church. I realize that there are sects in both religions which have made attempts to get back to their roots, but I wonder how successfully.

[OingoBoingo]

Oh, I agree - if we grant that "Christianity" needs sharper definition in such a context. But is quite interesting, to say the least, for an agnostic to do the type of Jewish critique that NormAtive has.

Agreed, it is interesting.

[robrecht]

Well, not only grew apart, but also evolved in their own right. Judaism in the common period looks radically different to the Judaism of the 1st century, and no doubt the Judaism of the 1st century looked radically different to the Hebrew religion a millennium before then. Likewise, modern Christianity looks quite different to what we read about of the early church. I realize that there are sects in both religions which have made attempts to get back to their roots, but I wonder how successfully.

Yes, indeed, where there is no evolution, there is no growth, only eventually death. It is interesting that one of the most well known reformers of Christianity expected the conversion of the Jews but ended up bitterly hating them. Compare that with St Francis' attempts to rebuild the Church. There are some good reasons to believe that Francis may have been of Jewish heritage and that his family was Christian in name only. He preached the gospel by his communal life of service and did not engage in inter-religious polemics. He even got along with Muslims during an age of crusades.

[Xtian Rabinovich]

Hi Norm,

We haven't sacrificed animals for thousands of years. And, you have it all wrong. The sacrifice is just that - a sacrifice. Think of it like you do your tithe (actually that's where you get your idea of a tithe from - it means one tenth of your livestock, grain, etc.). You give it because you are thankful that G-d has given you all that you have.

As is the case with ritual circumcision, which is what animal sacrifice is all about, it's the blood that's the key signifier and symbol. The blood is taken into the most holy place. The blood is placed on the doorposts, the blood is placed on the high priest. The blood is sprinkled on the children of Israel as an ornament of glory.

Moses takes the golden calf and sacrifices it like he would the bull on Yom Kippur. He burns the flesh. And since there's no blood in the golden calve, he manufactures it . . . he must manufacture it, since it's the primary symbol of atonement. ----- How does he manufacture blood? ----- He smelts the golden calve and turns it into "powder" fine as the dust of the earth.

For what purpose? ----- A careful reader will note that he sprinkles the powdered gold into the stream when he smites the Rock to get water for the children of Israel. A knowledgeable reader will know that if gold is powdered "fine as the dust of the earth" and placed into water it becomes colloidal gold. Colloidal gold is red like blood. The children of Israel drink the blood of the sacrifice (John 6:53), they fill their mikvahs with colloidal gold such that they're purified by the blood when they baptize themselves in the mikvah filled with the blood of the sacrifice.

Someone familiar with the ancient ritual of bris milah will know that these same symbols carry over to the rite upon which all others are based, ritual circumcision. Therefore the mohel not only performs metzitzah to symbolize drinking the blood of the sacrifice, but in the middle ages (and probably up until modern times) the mohel placed some of the blood on the lips of the circumcisee.

[RBerman]

The Tanakh was also written by men. The Talmud more accurately describes humanity.

Well, we each appear to have made clear the authorities from which our respective beliefs are derived. That's something.

Nehemiah 8 says that "the law of Moses" is also "the law of God." Do you feel free to disregard or re-edit the law of God?

[mitzi]

In another thread, NORM posted a comment that goes against everything (very little, I admit) I understood about Yom Kippur:



In trying to understand this, I looked at some Jewish sources, and found, among others, this...

Source: Jdaism 101

Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri. The holiday is instituted at Leviticus 23:26 et seq.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to "afflict the soul," to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the "books" in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends.

As I noted in Days of Awe, Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur.

© Copyright Original Source

It doesn't seem that Yom Kippur is an event where "It is not conditioned on anything".

What do you mean that Yom Kippur isn't conditioned on anything? The whole purpose is on repentance between God and mankind (individuals) and not to mention it is about God's judgment. This event or high holy day is not only called "great" but "terrible" because we "all" are being judged.

[Cow Poke]

What do you mean that Yom Kippur isn't conditioned on anything? The whole purpose is on repentance between God and mankind (individuals) and not to mention it is about God's judgment. This event or high holy day is not only called "great" but "terrible" because we "all" are being judged.

Yeah

[Darth Executor]

You're missing about 15 years of diligent Talmudic study!

Thank you for succinctly explaining how modern Judaism is pretty much a cargo cult about as Jewish as, well, you know.

We are known as the "people of the Book" for a reason!

You call yourselves that but nobody except Muslims know you as that, and Muslims don't limit that term to Jews.

[mitzi]

In another thread, NORM posted a comment that goes against everything (very little, I admit) I understood about Yom Kippur:



In trying to understand this, I looked at some Jewish sources, and found, among others, this...

Source: Jdaism 101

Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri. The holiday is instituted at Leviticus 23:26 et seq.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to "afflict the soul," to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the "books" in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends.

As I noted in Days of Awe, Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur.

© Copyright Original Source

It doesn't seem that Yom Kippur is an event where "It is not conditioned on anything".

Cow Poke - Sorry for the last post. My bad In respect of, and depending on which affiliation sect you belong to, there are conditions in a human and spiritual way (read high lighted boxed area):

In order to apologize to God, one must: 1.Pray; 2.Repent; 3.Give to charity. This sounds very easy – but it’s not. We know that sin “blinds” the soul from the salvation that God brings, right? Well that sin or our multitude of sins (whichever) gives distance. Sometimes a sin can blind us for many years or it can bring us to back in “a” day. There are no conditions on forgiveness or when salvation comes to us. It is the fact that we can recognize it and know what that sin is doing in our life and the lives around us. Is God’s forgiveness conditional or non conditional?

Exodus 4: The LORD said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

This verse can be read in a physical way of God giving sight or blindness and in a spiritual way....My point being is that the "Act of Forgiveness" isn't an easy route when we (ourselves) become aware of our own sins!" It not a matter of "steps" per se – it just a matter of when we become aware of God and His presence in our lives. Perhaps there are steps – and sometimes not. Even when all communication seems to shut off between God and ourselves – and even then, we should not stop praying. The right prayer (with the help of the Holy Spirit - ruacḥ haqodes,) will give us the courage and sincerity to stand before him and ask to be forgiven. It’s not as easy as it sounds…..Think of King David and Nathan and what David said, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

The very act of recognizing and reasoning is Rosh Hashanah (New Year - and new slate) and Yom Kippur – Teshuvah, repentance, is within David's statement! It is both “Great” and it is a “Terrible” day when God comes to judge us.

In Orthodox Judaism, accordingly, studying the Temple ritual on Yom Kippur represents a positive rabbinically ordained obligation which Jews seeking atonement are required to fulfill.

In Orthodox synagogues, most Conservative, and some progressive [17] a detailed description of the Temple ritual is recited on the day. In most Orthodox and some Conservative synagogues, the entire congregation prostrates themselves at each point in the recitation where the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) would pronounce the Tetragrammaton (God’s holiest name, according to Judaism).

**Orthodox liturgies include prayers lamenting the inability to perform the Temple service and petitioning for its restoration, which Conservative synagogues generally omit. In some Conservative synagogues, only the Hazzan (cantor) engages in full prostration. Some Conservative synagogues abridge the recitation of the Avodah service to varying degrees, and some omit it entirely. Many Reform and Reconstructionist services omit the entire service as inconsistent with modern sensibilities.

NormaTive, when it comes to G-d's forgiveness - and in all sincerity, and with many tears, He hears the prayers of his people when they call to him for help. Remembering the Exodus,

"The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.

But also, in the same stroke....and remembering this verse,

". For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture and the flocks of His hand, today, if you hearken to my voice.
8. Do not harden your heart as [in] Meribah, as [on] the day of Massah in the desert.
ח. אַל תַּקְשׁוּ לְבַבְכֶם כִּמְרִיבָה כְּיוֹם מַסָּה בַּמִּדְבָּר:
9. When your ancestors tested Me; they tried Me, even though they had seen My work.
ט. אֲשֶׁר נִסּוּנִי אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם בְּחָנוּנִי גַּם רָאוּ פָעֳלִי:
10. Forty years I quarreled with a generation, and I said, "They are a people of erring hearts and they did not know My ways."


Another thought to Yom Kippur:

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.” 15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.” 19 David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked. Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.” 20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. 21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”


So what did you read in both scenarios? God heard the cries of the people and responded with a deliverer, Moses. In the desert, the people rebelled against God, They turned against God so often in the desert and grieved him there." (which if you read from the Acts of the Apostle, Paul tells even us as his people "not" to grieve God, Ephesians 4:30-32 the Bible states, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.")

In the story of David - which I found remarkable, David did not fight Nathan when it came to his sin even when most people would. However, after David admitted his sin before Nathan - what happened? Where there any conditions? and What did David do? “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows?

It's true, in a sense, there are "NO" conditions to God's forgiveness - but we must live with the consequences of our own actions and how they will affect others. Moses said it best, choose life not death. Only God can resurrect the dead!

[mitzi]

Here is my answer to you in the other thread. As a non-theist, I'm not supposed to be in this side.


You're missing about 15 years of diligent Talmudic study!

The ritual of forgiveness is for the HUMANS, not G-d. G-d does not need our repentance. G-d is well aware of our sinfulness, and well aware that we will continue to sin. The thing we are taught to keep in mind is that G-d is ALWAYS faithful, and will ALWAYS forgive. That is the essence of Yom Kippur:

כִּרְחֹק מִזְרָח, מִמַּעֲרָב הִרְחִיק מִמֶּנּוּ, אֶתפְּשָׁעֵינוּ - Tehillim (Psalms) 103:12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Cow Poke, I think you would find attending a Yom Kippur service for yourself very enlightening - and beautiful. The symbolism is intense. It is very difficult concept to explain to folks who have a preconceived notion of what the Jewish understanding of "atonement" means. You are interpreting the word from your own Christian perspective. It is 180 degrees opposite.

Adin Steinsaltz' Essential Talmud (sorry, it's not available online) has the best explanation for non-Jews that I can recommend. You will not find much in-depth insight into Judaism on the Internet. That's not how we roll. We are known as the "people of the Book" for a reason! The ultra-orthodox have a "thing" about non-Jews using the words of the Tanakh and Talmud out of context.

Judaism 101 is an OK source, but its intent is to not make Judaism seem so silly (and complicated) to young people. Unfortunately, it is complicated.

Sorry.

NORM

Norm - Aish.com: Teshuva: Dry Cleaning for the Soul

As an intelligent, thinking, imaginative being, man has all sorts of thoughts flashing constantly through his mind. Even sublime thoughts of remorse and self-improvement are not strange to him, but they do not last. For his thoughts to have lasting meaning, he must distill them into words, because the process of thought culminates when ideas are expressed and clarified.

That is not as easy as it sounds. It is usually excruciatingly difficult for people to admit explicitly that they have done wrong. We excuse ourselves. We refuse to admit the truth. We shift blame. We deny the obvious. We excel at rationalizing. But the person who wrenches from himself the unpleasant truth, "I have sinned," has performed a great and meaningful act.

[mitzi]

Here is my answer to you in the other thread. As a non-theist, I'm not supposed to be in this side.


You're missing about 15 years of diligent Talmudic study!

The ritual of forgiveness is for the HUMANS, not G-d. G-d does not need our repentance. G-d is well aware of our sinfulness, and well aware that we will continue to sin. The thing we are taught to keep in mind is that G-d is ALWAYS faithful, and will ALWAYS forgive. That is the essence of Yom Kippur:

כִּרְחֹק מִזְרָח, מִמַּעֲרָב הִרְחִיק מִמֶּנּוּ, אֶתפְּשָׁעֵינוּ - Tehillim (Psalms) 103:12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Cow Poke, I think you would find attending a Yom Kippur service for yourself very enlightening - and beautiful. The symbolism is intense. It is very difficult concept to explain to folks who have a preconceived notion of what the Jewish understanding of "atonement" means. You are interpreting the word from your own Christian perspective. It is 180 degrees opposite.

Adin Steinsaltz' Essential Talmud (sorry, it's not available online) has the best explanation for non-Jews that I can recommend. You will not find much in-depth insight into Judaism on the Internet. That's not how we roll. We are known as the "people of the Book" for a reason! The ultra-orthodox have a "thing" about non-Jews using the words of the Tanakh and Talmud out of context.

Judaism 101 is an OK source, but its intent is to not make Judaism seem so silly (and complicated) to young people. Unfortunately, it is complicated.

Sorry.

NORM

Norm - Aish.com: Teshuva: Dry Cleaning for the Soul

"As an intelligent, thinking, imaginative being, man has all sorts of thoughts flashing constantly through his mind. Even sublime thoughts of remorse and self-improvement are not strange to him, but they do not last. For his thoughts to have lasting meaning, he must distill them into words, because the process of thought culminates when ideas are expressed and clarified.

That is not as easy as it sounds. It is usually excruciatingly difficult for people to admit explicitly that they have done wrong. We excuse ourselves. We refuse to admit the truth. We shift blame. We deny the obvious. We excel at rationalizing. But the person who wrenches from himself the unpleasant truth, "I have sinned," has performed a great and meaningful act."



Honestly, you make it sound like its a system of process to repentance. What is Nehemiah 9 saying? What is Daniel 9 saying in the same breath? and in 3rd Maccabees,"19 Wipe away our sins and disperse our errors, and reveal your mercy at this hour. 20 Speedily let your mercies overtake us, and put praises in the mouth of ..." Some of these prophet were recalling and confessing the sin of the people and as Nehemiah said recalling God's great mercies, "So you delivered them into the hands of their enemies, who oppressed them. But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them deliverers, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.. But what does it take for God to respond back - how many times has God responded back - Jesus said it, Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." Seventy times seven. No specific number, but practically unlimited. There is no measure to forgiveness; it must be practiced whenever the occasion arises.


Solomon's prayer:

"Yet give attention to your servant’s prayer and his plea for mercy, Lord my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day. 29 May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, ‘My Name shall be there,’ so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. 30 Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive." - 1 Kings 8:22