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US forces were deployed in 33 African nations in 2016

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Serious question - not baiting or anything - if your country were attacked, would you expect your military (such as it is) to mount a vigorous counter-attack? (and, even clarifying that I don't believe a lot of the military actions of the US are "defensive")
    I think it's a really hard moral question about whether it would be justified for a country to fight in its own defense when attacked if it were known that the attacker merely wanted political control of the country (rather than wanting to commit genocide on the citizens in it). In general I would be a pacifist and conscientious objector, but even I acknowledge that theoretically there comes a certain point where it just gets silly not to fight back if the other person is literally killing you. And it can certainly be a useful deterrent to war if countries at least pretend that they totally would fight hard to defend themselves if they were attacked.

    But on second-reading, I think maybe your question about "mount[ing] a vigorous counter-attack" is not merely intending to ask me if I think defenders should try to push back the invaders, but rather should pro-actively invade the attacker's own country (e.g. the US into Afghanistan after 9/11 kind of thing... although that's not a good example because the terrorists weren't an invading army). I would say that almost certainly they should not do so... the bar for invading another country is an order or magnitude or more higher than the bar for simply defending themselves against the attack which is problematic enough as it is.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I think it's a really hard moral question about whether it would be justified for a country to fight in its own defense when attacked if it were known that the attacker merely wanted political control of the country (rather than wanting to commit genocide on the citizens in it).


      On second thought I'm fine with you believing that. Anything that makes you and your kind weak and easy to destroy is fine by me.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        On second thought I'm fine with you believing that. Anything that makes you and your kind weak and easy to destroy is fine by me.
        Oh I'm not suggesting a "don't fight back at all" policy.

        History has shown that non-violent protests and non-violent movements are much more effective ways for a relatively powerless group to fight back against a more powerful foe. Terrorist resistance organisations almost never ever win, while non-violent movements have a tendency to be very successful. Mass protest and non-cooperation can accomplish a lot.

        As also can economic sanctions. Hit them where it hurts - in the pocket. Stopping bad actors with economics is often a lot more effective than trying to stop them with military force.

        And if all else fails, then by all means, assassinate the enemy leadership if necessary. Why kill thousands and thousands of enemy soldiers who by and large are average or below average smucks who never did anything to you and didn't have much of a choice in the matter, rather than the small number of people who are really responsible? If you're going to spend lives resisting with lethal force, then I think it's important to at least aim that force where it causes the most damage and has the highest deterrent effect. An enemy dictator might be callous about the lives of his men on the battlefield, but he'll think twice and be ultra-paranoid if he thinks people will be out to get him and his family personally. Instead of spending $1 billion defending against the invasion with the lives of your people, instead use the money to put a price on the head of the wrongdoers. They'll think three times if their own bodyguards are openly being offered a billion dollars for them and their relatives if they stick a knife in. War was a game invented by the elites to expand their power which has no cost to them personally and in which other people suffer - so don't play it, cheat - hit them where it hurts instead. It's a lot more efficient, and saves massively on the human suffering they are trying to cause.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Yet, here you are!
          Maybe because I agree with the OP?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Maybe because I agree with the OP?
            Cool.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I think it's a really hard moral question about whether it would be justified for a country to fight in its own defense when attacked if it were known that the attacker merely wanted political control of the country (rather than wanting to commit genocide on the citizens in it). In general I would be a pacifist and conscientious objector, but even I acknowledge that theoretically there comes a certain point where it just gets silly not to fight back if the other person is literally killing you. And it can certainly be a useful deterrent to war if countries at least pretend that they totally would fight hard to defend themselves if they were attacked.
              I'll have to process that. But I didn't ask so I could argue with it, just trying to see where you are on this.

              But on second-reading, I think maybe your question about "mount[ing] a vigorous counter-attack" is not merely intending to ask me if I think defenders should try to push back the invaders, but rather should pro-actively invade the attacker's own country (e.g. the US into Afghanistan after 9/11 kind of thing...
              No, didn't intend that - though I can see how you could get that from what I said.

              although that's not a good example because the terrorists weren't an invading army). I would say that almost certainly they should not do so... the bar for invading another country is an order or magnitude or more higher than the bar for simply defending themselves against the attack which is problematic enough as it is.
              I'll give some more thought on why I should disagree with that, but so far.... nothing.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Having actually spent some time in Africa (i.e. the first 27 years of my life), having a number of my friends and family still living there, having had my eldest brother fighting in the war against Angola in the 80's (where the guys they were fighting were all supported by Soviet hardware), having seen how unprofessional the professional soldiers in South Africa have become. Having dealt with multiple news stories of African UN peacekeepers being worse than what they're meant to be keeping the peace from (the rape states tend to go up when the South African UN peacekeepers roll into town, and that includes raping little girls). Having had friends and friends of friends on the receiving end of Mugabe's soldiers retribution (for belonging to the wrong political party), and African having soldiers who have worked their way up the ranks as child soldiers encouraged to be savage and brutal, I can appreciate the US trying to bring some professionalism and decency to the armed forces of Africa.


                Oh and the African military weapon of choice is still the AK-47.
                Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                1 Corinthians 16:13

                "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                -Ben Witherington III

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                • #23
                  Good. At least they aren't just sitting around doing nothing.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    And, if you ever grow up, you wanna be just like Jaecp!
                    Does the church you're a minister for know you're such a jackass on the internet?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      You can hereby check the "I bashed the US today" box.
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Opposing military deployments and interventions around the world, even in countries we're not at war with, isn't "US bashing." It's that type of BS that stifles any dialogue about the subject. Gotta support this military action or you're a traitor type of bull argument. "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorist." Come on, CP, grow up, man. How old are you?
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Wow. Who peed in YOUR wheaties?
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      You just act so immature, man. You're an obsessive kook AND you're immature.
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      And, if you ever grow up, you wanna be just like Jaecp!
                      I wasn't even in the thread man, you are such a child
                      Last edited by Jaecp; 01-08-2017, 04:39 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                        I wasn't even in the thread man, you are such a child
                        I know - I summoned you.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I know - I summoned you.
                          Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                          Does the church you're a minister for know you're such a jackass on the internet?
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                            .
                            Did you ever get around to answering the question you kept avoiding, then declared you answered, and complained I was following you around?
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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