The Israeli-Palestine conflict

[elam]

On another thread John Reece has accused me of being anti-semitic. Which I find strange given I grew up with Jewish refugees and even though I was RCC my first permanent job which led to a profitable career was given to me by a Jewish executive in a predominately Jewish insurance company. I have a debt of gratitude for genuine Jews. To put things in perspective for you: when I left school it took me a while to find a permanent job, mainly because in the employment pages we would regularly encounter "Jews & Catholics need to apply", that was a constant until the 1980s. I've experienced blind prejudice...

John please don't play the semite card, the Palestinians are your brothers. Both Isaac & Ishmael were Abraham's sons. Abraham was a Cannanite. Moses, to Aaron' s disdain, had a Midianite/Cushite wife/s. On face value: It is you that is anti-semitic!

According to my Jewish friends you can either be a Zionist or a Jew, you can't be both!

All I've done is state historical fact. And the reality of international law. The reality is Zionist Israel, to be distinguished from Jewish Israel, is pursuing an illegal act (under international law) in its pursuit of the captured territories. No ifs or buts that is just a cold hard fact.

The current Palestinian problems go back to the Yom Kipper war in 1973. In the 1967 6 day war, Israel won and captured a lot of territory from Egypt, Jordan & Syria. After the Yom Kipper war (Israel suffered heavy losses) Israel realised its strength was waning, so was open to compromise with the Arabs. Hence the 1978 Camp David Accords. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and normalizes relations. Egypt in turn recognised Israel. Jordan & Syria were/are a different case. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I suspect Israel took retribution out on the Palestinians living in the territories captured in 1967. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled to nearby countries as refugees. From an international perspective Zionist Israel (not Jewish Israel) is pursuing a "final solution" for the Palestinians.

If you are a student of history you'd know about the original plan for "Mandated Palestine" (1939-1945). Palestine was not to be partitioned, but the Arabs who owned and populated most of the territory would be induced to allow Jews to settle and establish a homeland within Palestine. Whilst the Arabs weren't happy with the plan they didn't see a choice other than to go along with it, but they did negotiate compromises on the level of Jewish immigration and the ability of Jews to buy Arab land. The Zionists weren't happy and there were numerous civil clashes (wars) that caused nothing but headaches for the British administrators. Flash forward to 1947. The UN came up with a plan to partition Palestine into two states, and to make Jerusalem an international (UN) protectorate. The Arabs rejected the plan to partition their territory. Israel more or less accepted and a nation was born. Hence the conflicts of the last 70 or so years.

Flash forward to 1988. The PLO relying on UN Resolution 181(which had established Israel) declares independence. The International Court of Justice advised the UN that "The...right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed". Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinian State.

Inconvenient truths for you maybe, but irrefutable facts none the less...

[Darth Executor]

The Palestinians aren't John's brothers (neither are Jews for that matter), let's not make stuff up.

According to my Jewish friends you can either be a Zionist or a Jew, you can't be both!

Your Jewish friends are idiots.

Anyway, nobody is disputing that Israel is breaking UN law. But Palestinians also routinely break it, and more importantly the UN has no power so it's debatable whether their laws have any legitimacy seeing how nobody wants to follow them and there's no consequence for it. And that's before we get into the simple reality, which is that the palestinians (and Muslims in general) have no desire to coexist with Israel, and as of the last decade or so the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't seem interested in coexisting with the palestinians either. Netanyahu is actually moderate by Israeli standards and still sounds to the right of nearly every western politician. The palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse the israelis and the end result is that they will probably be ethnically cleasned themselves instead. Ironic, and I'm not sure why the survival of some Islamic tribe is of any concern to me.

[Starlight]

Internationally, everyone seems to think Israel is in the wrong in its treatment of the Palestinians, and especially in their continuing practice of putting Jewish settlements onto Palestinian territory.

My country (NZ), which is a neutral party on the other side of the world from Israel and has no significant population of either Jews or Arabs, picked up and sponsored the most recent UN resolution condemning Israel for this - after Trump had pressured Egypt into dropping it. It sailed through the UN with everyone agreeing and the US abstaining. Netanyahu threw his usual toddler's tantrum in response claiming:

NZ's actions amounted to a "declaration of war".

and kicked out our ambassador to Israel etc. He also threatened trade sanctions, and since Israel is our 55th largest trading partner, that is not something anyone here would care about.

Netanyahu's a nutter. I'd like to see him tried for war crimes by the ICC.

[elam]

The Palestinians aren't John's brothers (neither are Jews for that matter), let's not make stuff up.

Have you read the Epistle to the Romans lately?

Your Jewish friends are idiots.

Maybe. But many of them could buy and sell you many times over.

Presume you have never heard of IJAN (International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network). There are numerous affiliated networks around the world. They contend that "antisemitism and Zionism feed off of each other and far from being a solution to anti-Semitism, Zionism leverages and needs it."

Anyway, nobody is disputing that Israel is breaking UN law. But Palestinians also routinely break it, and more importantly the UN has no power so it's debatable whether their laws have any legitimacy seeing how nobody wants to follow them and there's no consequence for it. And that's before we get into the simple reality, which is that the palestinians (and Muslims in general) have no desire to coexist with Israel, and as of the last decade or so the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't seem interested in coexisting with the palestinians either.

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Netanyahu is actually moderate by Israeli standards and still sounds to the right of nearly every western politician.

I'm not sure about him. But I do recognise he is between a rock and a hard place. Several of his cohorts have been calling for the annexation of the captured territories. But if that happens overtly expect WW3. He knows it, the world knows it, but the extremists in Israel don't care.

The palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse the israelis

I'm not aware of that, can you provide some documentation.

I just did a quick check. In the 1948 uprising it was the Zionists who had a policy of ethic cleansing.planned by Zionist movement leaders, mainly David Ben-Gurion and the other ten members of his "consultancy group". 720,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes.

I am aware that there were multiple wars instigated by the Zionists against both the British & the Arabs up until 1947 (after declaring independence there was a civil war). The Zionists employing guerilla tactics. If that situation was happening today the press would brand the Zionists 'terrorists', which they were from a world perspective. To the Zionists, their fighters were freedom fighters.

and the end result is that they will probably be ethnically cleasned themselves instead. Ironic,

From what I've read and observed in the last 40 or so years, that seems to be the extremest plan. From what I gather Netanyahu is doing his best to delay the prospect.

and I'm not sure why the survival of some Islamic tribe is of any concern to me.

The default position of Jordon and the rest of the Arab world is if that happened Israel will cease to exist. It largely depends on the response of the USA & Russia. WW3 is a possibility, especially given the acceleration of Russian influence amoungst the middle eastern powers. (Turkey, Iran, Egypt & possibly the Suadi's & UAE). The USA is losing its grip on the middle east, basically all that is left is Israel. The big question is whether the USA would enter a conflict with Russia over Israel (?)

[Jedidiah]

Internationally, everyone seems to think Israel is in the wrong in its treatment of the Palestinians, and especially in their continuing practice of putting Jewish settlements onto Palestinian territory.

There is no building going on in Palestinian territory. In fact there is no Palestinian territory.

[shunyadragon]

On another thread John Reece has accused me of being anti-semitic. Which I find strange given I grew up with Jewish refugees and even though I was RCC my first permanent job which led to a profitable career was given to me by a Jewish executive in a predominately Jewish insurance company. I have a debt of gratitude for genuine Jews. To put things in perspective for you: when I left school it took me a while to find a permanent job, mainly because in the employment pages we would regularly encounter "Jews & Catholics need to apply", that was a constant until the 1980s. I've experienced blind prejudice...

John please don't play the semite card, the Palestinians are your brothers. Both Isaac & Ishmael were Abraham's sons. Abraham was a Cannanite. Moses, to Aaron' s disdain, had a Midianite/Cushite wife/s. On face value: It is you that is anti-semitic!

According to my Jewish friends you can either be a Zionist or a Jew, you can't be both!

All I've done is state historical fact. And the reality of international law. The reality is Zionist Israel, to be distinguished from Jewish Israel, is pursuing an illegal act (under international law) in its pursuit of the captured territories. No ifs or buts that is just a cold hard fact.

The current Palestinian problems go back to the Yom Kipper war in 1973. In the 1967 6 day war, Israel won and captured a lot of territory from Egypt, Jordan & Syria. After the Yom Kipper war (Israel suffered heavy losses) Israel realised its strength was waning, so was open to compromise with the Arabs. Hence the 1978 Camp David Accords. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and normalizes relations. Egypt in turn recognised Israel. Jordan & Syria were/are a different case. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I suspect Israel took retribution out on the Palestinians living in the territories captured in 1967. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled to nearby countries as refugees. From an international perspective Zionist Israel (not Jewish Israel) is pursuing a "final solution" for the Palestinians.

If you are a student of history you'd know about the original plan for "Mandated Palestine" (1939-1945). Palestine was not to be partitioned, but the Arabs who owned and populated most of the territory would be induced to allow Jews to settle and establish a homeland within Palestine. Whilst the Arabs weren't happy with the plan they didn't see a choice other than to go along with it, but they did negotiate compromises on the level of Jewish immigration and the ability of Jews to buy Arab land. The Zionists weren't happy and there were numerous civil clashes (wars) that caused nothing but headaches for the British administrators. Flash forward to 1947. The UN came up with a plan to partition Palestine into two states, and to make Jerusalem an international (UN) protectorate. The Arabs rejected the plan to partition their territory. Israel more or less accepted and a nation was born. Hence the conflicts of the last 70 or so years.

Flash forward to 1988. The PLO relying on UN Resolution 181(which had established Israel) declares independence. The International Court of Justice advised the UN that "The...right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed". Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinian State.

Inconvenient truths for you maybe, but irrefutable facts none the less...

The origins of the conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Israel/Palestine history involves the entire history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is also rooted in the claims of the prophetic claims of the restoration of the Hebrew homeland. It goes back more directly to the Crusades and religious claims to the Holy Lands.

Also there is no such thing as a secular State of Israel. It is a Holy War. Zionists are Jews, and Zionism is the purpose for the existence of the State of Israel.

[elam]

There is no building going on in Palestinian territory. In fact there is no Palestinian territory.

In the eyes of Israel that is true. In the eyes of the world the borders of 1967(the 1948 boundaries) define the two states, Israel & Palestine. Israel is building in East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights which the international community recognises as Palestinian territory. A heap of compromises have been proposed over the years. Have a read of the following doc. It might enlighten you to the intransigence of Israeli colonialism.
Land and Settlement Issues

The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits countries from moving population into territories occupied in a war. Israel didn't occupy the disputed [Palestinian] territories until after the 1967 war. so as far as the international community is concerned Israel is settling the disputed lands illegally. Israel for some obscure reason [assume belligery] attempts to argue that the 1949 convention does not apply to them, even though The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.

Take the USA out of the equation and the issue will be quickly settled.

John Reece has a thread going that asks if the USA should leave the UN. For the sake of world peace it might be a good idea if they did. A bigger question is whether the USA could thrive if it returned to isolationism (?)

[elam]

The origins of the conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Israel/Palestine history involves the entire history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is also rooted in the claims of the prophetic claims of the restoration of the Hebrew homeland. It goes back more directly to the Crusades and religious claims to the Holy Lands.

Also there is no such thing as a secular State of Israel. It is a Holy War. Zionists are Jews, and Zionism is the purpose for the existence of the State of Israel.

Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs

"For years, reporting from Israel and the comments of those Israelis whom the reporters cover or interview has suggested that Israeli Jews are divided into two groups: the overwhelmingly majority who are secular and a small minority who are religious. While figures, even percentages, were not always stated, it was generally assumed that 80 percent of Israelis fell into the secular camp and were being religiously coerced in one way or another by the religious 20 percent...

Israel's Jews are not divided into two groups but into four...8 percent are ultra-Orthodox....17 percent are religious Zionist...55 percent, who define themselves as "traditional"...Many of these "traditional" Jews differ from the Orthodox only because they [ignore the Sabbath prohibitions. The. final 20% define themselves as secular]...all the elites in Israeli society, cultural, intellectual, political, and economic are found within the secular 20 percent".
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/howrelisr.htm


Religion in Israel - Wikipedia

"A Gallup survey in 2015 determined that 65 percent of Israelis say they are either "not religious" or "convinced atheists", while 30 percent say they are "religious". Israel is in the middle of the international religiosity scale, between Thailand, the world's most religious country, and China, the least religious.[10]

As of 2009, 8% of Israeli Jews defined themselves as Haredim; an additional 12% as "religious"; 13% as "religious-traditionalists" ; 25% as "non-religious-traditionalists" (not strictly adhering to Jewish law or halakha); and 42% as "secular" (Hebrew: חִלּוֹנִי, Hiloni).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel


Israel 2010: 42% of Jews are secular - Ynet news

"The Central Bureau of Statistics report published Sunday reveals that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as haredi, 12% as religious, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity...

...Among the Jewish population, the percentage of haredim is higher among younger people. In the age bracket 20-29, some 14% define themselves as haredi, compared to only 2% among those aged 65 and above. The percentage of those defining themselves as religious or traditional-religious is similar for the two age brackets. Some 38% of those aged 20-29 define themselves as secular, compared with 43% among those aged 65 and above. Among Jews, there is no outstanding difference in level of religiosity between men and women."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...890330,00.html

____________________

At least within Christianity, there is no concept of the re-establishment of Israel or the rebuilding of the Temple. From Revelation, the aspiration is that the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven, and God and the Lamb (Jesus) will be the Temple to those that survive the final judgement.

Muslims have an expectation of the return of Jesus (Isa ben Miriam) and the final judgement.

From Daniel 12:2 I would assume religious Jews would have a similar expectation. The Messiah would come, judge the living & the dead, resurrect those he deems fit.

____________________

In anycase the prophets of the OT tell us that both Israel & Judah have been accused by their God. Hence the diaspora.

As a Rabbi (a holocaust survivor from Hungary) once told me when I was a youth and curious, and a good little Catholic: "We [the Jews] are doing penance for the sins of our forefathers".

____________________

Initially the main issue with the crusades was protection of pilgrims, and the right of pilgrimage. These was unpredictable and depended on whims of whatever Caliph. Rome in its pragmatism wasn't particularly fussed about who occupied the land, as long as pilgrimage was secured & free. The Byzantium and North Africans Christians were more volatile.

[elam]

Internationally, everyone seems to think Israel is in the wrong in its treatment of the Palestinians, and especially in their continuing practice of putting Jewish settlements onto Palestinian territory.

My country (NZ), which is a neutral party on the other side of the world from Israel and has no significant population of either Jews or Arabs, picked up and sponsored the most recent UN resolution condemning Israel for this - after Trump had pressured Egypt into dropping it. It sailed through the UN with everyone agreeing and the US abstaining. Netanyahu threw his usual toddler's tantrum in response claiming:

NZ's actions amounted to a "declaration of war".

and kicked out our ambassador to Israel etc. He also threatened trade sanctions, and since Israel is our 55th largest trading partner, that is not something anyone here would care about.

Australia's seat on the Security Council expired at the end of 2014, but I wonder how the Oz government would have voted. I suspect we, being the USA's deputy Sheriff according to Bush a few years back, would have abstained, or given our FM's current rhetoric would have voted against the resolution (though Oz might have been pressured by our major trading partners to affirm the resolution). As things stand, it is just a academic curiosity. NZ on the other hand had to take the bull by the horns and demonstrate world leadership.

You made me curious and I imagined Oz in NZ's shoes. As with NZ, Oz wouldn't careless if Israel imposed sanctions on us (Oz is in trade deficit with Israel), and I assume Israel would feel little impact from ceasing trade with Oz.

For Israel, Oz ranks 23rd (0.8%) as an export destination, and 37th (0.3%) as an import source. For Oz, Israel ranks 75th (0.1%) as an export destination, and 42nd (0.2%) as an import source for trade in services, and for merchandise trade. Israel ranks 44th (0.1%) as an export destination, and 35th (0.3%) as an import source.
https://dfat.gov.au/trade/resources/Documents/isra.pdf

As far as I can tell, if the USA placed sanctions on Israeli trade it would have a major impact. Israel would have to find another market for 28.3% of its exports & find another source for 13.0% of its imports. Until I did this cursory economic oversight, I had imagined the USA as merely a donor to Israel and Israel's military ace card. Now I know better.

[Darth Executor]

Have you read the Epistle to the Romans lately?

What about it?

Maybe. But many of them could buy and sell you many times over.

Not a single one of them could buy me, even if they had all the money in the world.

Presume you have never heard of IJAN (International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network). There are numerous affiliated networks around the world. They contend that "antisemitism and Zionism feed off of each other and far from being a solution to anti-Semitism, Zionism leverages and needs it."

Yes, I've heard of these nutters.

That is a half-truth. The USA, has always used its veto power in the Security Council to block any action against Israel (Which is why the USA abstaining recently was so unexpected).

It's not a half truth at all. The UN is powerless. Why they're powerless is a matter of debate, but their exaggerated interest in Israel is part of why the US blocks any action against Israel in the first place. The UN is full of far worse abusers of human rights who want to use it to persecute Israel. It's all a mess of tribal conflicts and no interest in justice.

Yes, Israel has developed ties with various Arab nations, which have slowly abandoned Palestine over the palestinians being dangerous nutters. It's simply not true that the Palestinians recognized Israel though.

[quote]How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?[quote]
Link is behind paywall.

I'm not sure about him. But I do recognise he is between a rock and a hard place. Several of his cohorts have been calling for the annexation of the captured territories. But if that happens overtly expect WW3. He knows it, the world knows it, but the extremists in Israel don't care.

Lol you're nuts if you think there's gonna be WW3 over anything that happens in Palestine. Israel could holocaust the palestinians and it still wouldn't be WW3.

I'm not aware of that, can you provide some documentation.

I just did a quick check. In the 1948 uprising it was the Zionists who had a policy of ethic cleansing.planned by Zionist movement leaders, mainly David Ben-Gurion and the other ten members of his "consultancy group". 720,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes.

No, that's mostly just spin. Palestinians who wanted to destroy Israel fled to let the arab coalition have free reign to ethnically cleanse the Israelis. It didn't work out the way they wanted and Israel then refused to let them come back (understandably). It's true that there were jewish extremist groups trying to ethnically cleanse arabs but Israel eventually subdued them all.

The default position of Jordon and the rest of the Arab world is if that happened Israel will cease to exist.

It is? As far as I can tell both Israelis and Palestine's arab neighbours would love nothing more than to have the palestinians disappear. If any of them could make it happen without anyone knowing what happened they'd do it in a nanosecond.

It largely depends on the response of the USA & Russia. WW3 is a possibility, especially given the acceleration of Russian influence amoungst the middle eastern powers. (Turkey, Iran, Egypt & possibly the Suadi's & UAE). The USA is losing its grip on the middle east, basically all that is left is Israel. The big question is whether the USA would enter a conflict with Russia over Israel (?)

This is the most knee slappingly funny garbage I've read in ages. Arabs are firmly entreched in the American camp (at least the ones that matter) and even helped Obama kneecap the russian economy after the ukraine debacle. Conversely Israel and Russia are on friendly relations and Russia has absolutely no reason whatsoever to give a crap about Palestine in the first place, let alone start world war 3 over it.

[seer]

In the eyes of Israel that is true. In the eyes of the world the borders of 1967(the 1948 boundaries) define the two states, Israel & Palestine. Israel is building in East Jerusalem & the Golan Heights which the international community recognises as Palestinian territory. A heap of compromises have been proposed over the years. Have a read of the following doc. It might enlighten you to the intransigence of Israeli colonialism.

There has never been a Palestinian State in history, there was a Jewish State that goes back 3,000 years though on more than one occasion the Jews were forced from their homeland. And how can the Jews negotiate with Palestinians when the PA doesn't even believe that a Jewish nation has the right to exist.

[elam]

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Link is behind paywall.

What! You haven't got one measly dollar to spare for a one year subscription?

The paywall thing seems to come and go (guess they cycle their pages). I just clicked on the link and the full article came up!

Here are some note worthy extractions from the article...

"...There is an international consensus in favor of a two-state solution, and even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman now say they, too, support this goal after long careers opposing it. "

"...[The PLO] have long since performed the sine qua non of a two-state agreement by recognizing Israel. The other side, Israel, has never recognized a Palestinian state..."

"...There are a great many difficulties with [recognising a] "Jewish state" [as opposed to 'The State of Israel"], and Netanyahu's formulation "the nation-state of the Jewish people" in particular. This phrasing is full of highly problematic definite articles, and suggests a trans-historical claim to this land on behalf of an entire but undefined ethno-religious group the world over, not just the present Jewish Israeli majority. It harkens back to pre-state Zionism, defining Israel as if the state had not actually been created and several generations of Jewish and Arab Israelis had not been born there..."

"This framing also begs the question about the status of Palestinian citizens of Israel...[the PLO] will not agree to implicitly endorse the restrictions Palestinian citizens of Israel now face, or may face in the future..."

..."Israel itself cannot define what a "Jewish state" means, exactly. There were several attempts in the last Knesset to introduce legislation to clarify the term; all of them failed miserably because while there is a consensus among Jewish Israelis that their state is in some sense "Jewish," there is no consensus whatsoever as to what that entails. So, in effect, Palestinians are being asked to agree to something that even the Israelis cannot define with any degree of specificity..."

"...The "Jewish state" demand was first introduced in 2007 at the Annapolis meeting, never having been mentioned in previous Israeli negotiations with the Palestinians, let alone with Egypt or Jordan. It was dismissed by not just the Palestinian delegation, but also the American one, both recognizing it as an attempted end-run around the final status issue of Palestinian refugees..."

Lol you're nuts if you think there's gonna be WW3 over anything that happens in Palestine. Israel could holocaust the palestinians and it still wouldn't be WW3.

And Pakistan would holocaust Israel. Or possibly Turkey would. They currently have ready access to NATO's nukes. Alternatively, Russia or China might provide Iran, or the Suadis nukes for the purpose. Even if there wasn't a nuke retailiation, the whole world, including the USA would totally destroy the belligerants via conventional means. Netanyahu knows it, the USA knows it, the world knows it. Trouble is the extemists (zionists) don't care, and to make matters worse there are "christian" nut jobs that want to relegate God to the back of the room and impose their vision of armageddon on the world.

Palestinians who wanted to destroy Israel fled to let the arab coalition have free reign to ethnically cleanse the Israelis.

It is pity you have no proof and you'll never will, because the historical evidence is that the Zionist actively planned and carried out ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.

Of course, the Arabs fought back eventually. You'd be upset too if 54% of your homeland was stolen from you, by the stroke of a pen. The original UN plan assumed that nothing much would change after the partitioning. Arabs & Jews would live in relative harmony as they had done since the 19th century. However, they hadn't factored in the intransigence of the Zionists & Zealots...

Have you read Josephus' "The Jewish Wars". Seems like nothing much has changed in 2000 years...

[seer]

Of course, the Arabs fought back eventually. You'd be upset too if 54% of your homeland was stolen from you, by the stroke of a pen. The original UN plan assumed that nothing much would change after the partitioning. Arabs & Jews would live in relative harmony as they had done since the 19th century. However, they hadn't factored in the intransigence of the Zionists & Zealots...

Utter nonsense, there was only small minority of Jews in the late 1800s until the Zionist immigration. And even when under Arab rule the Arabs never offered the native Palestinians a state or self rule. So it was never "their" land. And you are a Jew hater. The Jews deserve a defensible homeland of their own.

[elam]

Utter nonsense, there was only small minority of Jews in the late 1800s until the Zionist immigration.[

That is true (see below). Though there was a surge from 1882 onwards..

And even when under Arab rule

Since the rise of the Ottoman empire, the Arabs were just Turkish chattel. Palestine was never under Arab rule. The Turks are not Arabs and nor are the British.

the Arabs never offered the native Palestinians a state or self rule.

Well they couldn't. The Ottoman's could have up until 1917. After that the formation of "Mandated Palestine" basically established a Palestinian state. The original intention was it was never to be partitioned, but the Arabs be encouraged to allow Jewish immigration and the establishment of a "homeland". The Zionists didn't like that idea, as it made the minority Jewish population subordinate to the majority Arab population. The 1947 decision by the UN was meant to stop the Zionist from blowing up things. By 1948 the state of Israel was declared and a civil war ensued.

an So it was never "their" land.

If you mean the Israelis then you are 100% correct. If you mean the Arabs, you are 100% wrong. What we now call the disputed territories were madnated by the Ottomans to Syria & Jordan respectively. The establishment of "Mandated Palestine" invested ownership of the region with the inhabitants, which just happened to be predominately Arab-Muslim and Arab-Christian.

What you say about Jewish immigration to Ottoman controlled Southern Syria (Palestine) in the 1800s is true. But you miss an important factor, the majority of Jews didn't want to go there. Of the millions of Jews that fled Europe upto 1920. Most went to the USA, Canada, Australia and anywhere but Palestine. With the advent and growth of the Zionist movement "aliyah" became an aspiration for some Jews. After WW1, the British were appointed custodians of what was then called "Mandated Palestine".

In 1920, the British Government presented an Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine. ..

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people... The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000."
Demographic_history_of_Palestine

And you are a Jew hater.

How so! All I've done is cite verifiable historical fact. If the truth hurts...

Most of my information comes directly from Jews, or books written by Jews. Religious Jews as a general rule dislike the Zionists.

You may not be aware of it, but there were Jewish communities in Palestine who can trace their residency to biblical times. I know a couple of Jewish guys who claim their families had until last century lived in the region for thousands of years but last century had to flee Israel because of Zionist persecution. I believe them. Mainly because there are a myriad of book written about the subject. A couple of which I have read.

The Jews deserve a defensible homeland of their own.

Why? No other religion has a defensible homeland of their own!

Interestingly, 2015 population stats identify that more than 58% of Jews prefer not to live in Israel.

[elam]

There has never been a Palestinian State in history, there was a Jewish State that goes back 3,000 years though on more than one occasion the Jews were forced from their homeland. And how can the Jews negotiate with Palestinians when the PA doesn't even believe that a Jewish nation has the right to exist.

Pre-State Israel

According to Sherif Hussein [a leading Arab nationalist of the time, and] the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia:

The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna'ihi*l*asliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor.

.As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. The truth is from the beginning of World War I, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut...Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced...In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." ...It was only after the Jews had bought all of [the undeveloped land] available...that they began to purchase cultivated land [from the Arabs]....

In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al-Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded. ..

[In 1937] the Peel Commission found that the shortage [of land] was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population"...

Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews...

Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin."

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If anyone here could contribute to the question "What caused the Arab uprising prior to 1947?" it would be appreciated. Just a bit of idle accademia to better inform myself...