Question for Calvinists/Determinists

[Chappie]

Dave:
I did not miss-understand you, you said precisely what I thought you said. My response is still good.

[quote]Dave:
You are arguing from purely human logic while I am simply trying to understand how scripture works in concert with itself. If the outcome of every circumstance is either predestined or the product of free will, which is the fall? If it was solely predestination, why is Adam held responsible for it? If it was solely free will, why did God not stop evil from entering the world? If not beyond His control due to impotence (not the omnipotent God of the Bible) or ignorance (also not the omniscient God of the Bible), then we are left with the fact that it was His choice to allow it to happen.

And you of course being not human are arguing from divine logic. Still, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck; perhaps a duck is a duck is a duck…

[Chappie]

That's OK. I know the bind that these questions put you in. Hope you can sort out your thinking on this without God having to beat you up to much.

Your kindness is uplifting...

[DaveKicks]

I did not miss-understand you, you said precisely what I thought you said. My response is still good.

I already responded to each of your thoughts on my position and explained why I disagree with them so I feel that each of us has presented their case and we simply disagree. Again, I don't feel like this is a problem because it doesn't affect our faith in Christ or the way we live our lives.

And you of course being not human are arguing from divine logic. Still, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck; perhaps a duck is a duck is a duck…

My apologies for making it sound like I was arguing from some "divine" logic. I was merely pointing out the fact that you are looking at each choice as either predestined or governed by free will while I was following scripture - it clearly teaches that both are at work in all things.

[rhutchin]

This should be "some, for the (free) choices they made in their lives, were 'fitted (ordained by God) to destruction.'"

For God to ordain means only that He allow natural forces to play out without interference from Him. For God to predestine means that God must intervene and override natural forces in order to bring about the desired outcome.

Who created those "natural forces" with omniscience? Saying that God allows them to "play out without interference" is forgetting that He already designed those forces to act as they do.

The difference is that secondary causes now come into play. The major player is man who is now free to do the things that he desires. Man can dam up a river and make a lake thus altering the natural flow of a river.

God can design gravity to work in a certain way, but man can build an airplane to override gravity for a while. God has begun a system that operates according to natural physical laws and man is able to abuse that system and take advantage of it. Thus, Adam is able to eat fruit contrary to God's law to him, Cain is able to kill his brother Abel, etc. This happens because God chooses not to intervene to prevent such outcomes.

Going back to the original point. For God to ordain means that He allows natural forces to play out without interference from Him which includes allowing men to act as they desire and not as He has instructed them. For God to predestine means that God must intervene and override natural forces, or man's decisions, in order to bring about a desired outcome.

[DaveKicks]

The difference is that secondary causes now come into play. The major player is man who is now free to do the things that he desires. Man can dam up a river and make a lake thus altering the natural flow of a river.

You're missing the point: Each "major player" is acting on a will designed by God with absolute omniscience. As such, God must have know how He was creating them and the consequences of His design for each individual's will. Thus, God was completely in control of human history from the start. The rest of your post is built on the same logic so I won't bother responding to each point in turn.

[Chappie]

I already responded to each of your thoughts on my position and explained why I disagree with them so I feel that each of us has presented their case and we simply disagree. Again, I don't feel like this is a problem because it doesn't affect our faith in Christ or the way we live our lives.

My apologies for making it sound like I was arguing from some "divine" logic. I was merely pointing out the fact that you are looking at each choice as either predestined or governed by free will while I was following scripture - it clearly teaches that both are at work in all things.

So was Adam compelled (Predestined by God) to disobey God. Or did Adam choose to volitionally disobey, and God allowed Adam's act to enter into human history:

Which inevitably altered God's desires for his creation: God then acted with a plan that restores his original intended outcome.

And by the way, all these attempts to interject secondary causes into a freewill discussion simply shows a lack of understanding of freewill, nothing more. Secondary causes impeede physical ability, not freewill.

[Chappie]

You're missing the point: Each "major player" is acting on a will designed by God with absolute omniscience. As such, God must have known how He was creating them and the consequences of His design for each individual's will. Thus, God was completely in control of human history from the start. The rest of your post is built on the same logic so I won't bother responding to each point in turn.

Rhut's post was a good one. Absolutely logical, non-contradictory and in no way offended scripture. The most valid response would have been, Good post Rhutt.

God has never not been "in control" of his creation: I.e., able to allow men to choose from the almost unlimited options that he designed for them, yet forever able to intervene at any time to redirect human history and events so as to fully accomplish his purpose and intentions. This is best described as in control but not controlling. In control but non-deterministic in every thought and action that men make.

It is the free will that God has endowed men with that stands him as a free moral agent, accountable to the consequences that God has designed for every action that we take. Without freewill, disobedience is a shell game played by perpetrator and victim.

God did design the will, but he designed it to be free. God then provided an abundance of options that manifest the freedom of that will. Omniscience that causes events defeats the definition of knowledge which is knowledge of. (Something) When we make foreknowledge causative, all that we say is "I do not have the slightest idea what it is or how it works, but here is my best guess...

BTW, Goooooood Morning Mr. Dave...

~Chappie

[DaveKicks]

So was Adam compelled (Predestined by God) to disobey God. Or did Adam choose to volitionally disobey, and God allowed Adam's act to enter into human history:

The answer to both of your questions is "yes." Adam chose to disobey God through a choice of his will. God created Adam's will in such a way that His ultimate purpose (the fall and redemption of man to the glory of His Name) could be accomplished.
This has been the nature of our discussion since I entered this thread so I'm not going to keep responding to the same question over and over.

And by the way, all these attempts to interject secondary causes into a freewill discussion simply shows a lack of understanding of freewill, nothing more. Secondary causes impeede physical ability, not freewill.

I was not the one who brought secondary causes into the discussion. I merely replied to rhutchin's point.

[DaveKicks]

I'm going to skip right to the substance of your post:

Omniscience that causes events defeats the definition of knowledge which is knowledge of. (Something) When we make foreknowledge causative, all that we say is "I do not have the slightest idea what it is or how it works, but here is my best guess...

You must have missed my parenthetical discussion of this in Post #57. There certainly does remain a question about the nature of how free our will is but I prefer living with that small problem in my worldview than believing that the Lord is too impotent or ignorant to have prevented the fall.

[Chappie]

I'm going to skip right to the substance of your post:
You must have missed my parenthetical discussion of this in Post #57. There certainly does remain a question about the nature of how free our will is but I prefer living with that small problem in my worldview than believing that the Lord is too impotent or ignorant to have prevented the fall.

A nation, a being, or any vilitional entity with a neculear bomb that chooses not to use it is not by long shot impotent. Neither does a choice not to use it consequence in ignorance. Most of your objection are based on the most trival of points.

[Chappie]

The answer to both of your questions is "yes." Adam chose to disobey God through a choice of his will. God created Adam's will in such a way that His ultimate purpose (the fall and redemption of man to the glory of His Name) could be accomplished.

And that creation included freewill. His ultimate purpose demands freewill.

This has been the nature of our discussion since I entered this thread so I'm not going to keep responding to the same question over and over.

When you do not have a fresh valid point, then just do not respone. That is a freedom allowed on this board. To you and me...

I was not the one who brought secondary causes into the discussion. I merely replied to rhutchin's point.

Gotcha...

[rhutchin]

The difference is that secondary causes now come into play. The major player is man who is now free to do the things that he desires.

You're missing the point: Each "major player" is acting on a will designed by God with absolute omniscience. As such, God must have know how He was creating them and the consequences of His design for each individual's will. Thus, God was completely in control of human history from the start. The rest of your post is built on the same logic so I won't bother responding to each point in turn.

I don't see your point. What you say tells us that God ordained everything (my earlier contention). It says nothing about God having to predestine anything (your earlier contention). God designed the will but He does not make the will do anything after that. The will can make decisions on its own.

[rhutchin]

...God created Adam's will in such a way that His ultimate purpose (the fall and redemption of man to the glory of His Name) could be accomplished...

In order to accomplish His purposes, I think we have to say that God created Adam with limitations (e.g., lack of omniscience) and then gave Adam a will with which Adam could make decisions in different directions and then God introduced a host of variables for Adam to contend with in making decisions (e.g., Eve, the fruit, the Serpent) all of which would tug him in different directions.

[DaveKicks]

What you say tells us that God ordained everything (my earlier contention). It says nothing about God having to predestine anything (your earlier contention). God designed the will but He does not make the will do anything after that. The will can make decisions on its own.

This is exactly my position. The predestination/ordination issue is a matter of semantics:

In order to accomplish His purposes, I think we have to say that God created Adam with limitations (e.g., lack of omniscience) and then gave Adam a will with which Adam could make decisions in different directions and then God introduced a host of variables for Adam to contend with in making decisions (e.g., Eve, the fruit, the Serpent) all of which would tug him in different directions.

I completely agree with this. My position is that God, in His omniscience, knew the consequences of all the variables on Adam's will when He created them (and subsequently knew the consequences of all variables on all wills) - in effect predestining the outcome of the Fall when He created Adam and the variables themselves (and subsequently predestining the outcome of all human history). You call it "ordaining" while I call it "predestination." I'm cool with that.

[Chappie]

In order to accomplish His purposes, I think we have to say that God created Adam with limitations (e.g., lack of omniscience) and then gave Adam a will with which Adam could make decisions in different directions and then God introduced a host of variables for Adam to contend with in making decisions (e.g., Eve, the fruit, the Serpent) all of which would tug him in different directions.

Chappie to Rhut. Rhut where are you. Stop hiding from the Chapster. Come out, come out where ever you are.

Excellant post Mr. Rhutt. I say this post is just dog gone good. That is biblical freewill. Not compatabalistic, (allowing for the concept of disobedience) not that other pre stuff that can be denied because men cannot choose to fly...