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Definition of Anti-Semite : Someone Who Hates Jewish People

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  • Definition of Anti-Semite : Someone Who Hates Jewish People

    The title of this thread = the full quote of the entire definition of "anti-Semite" in the current Merriam-Webster dictionary online:

    Definition of anti-Semite

    : someone who hates Jewish people


    TWebber elam has accused me twice of being antisemitic on the basis of an archaic definition of the term; however, the definition he prefers is not the current sense of the word as commonly used and understood, nor as defined above in the current Merriam-Webster dictionary online.

    I have apologized to elam for suggesting that he has an anti-semitic obsession re Israelis, and I am not now withdrawing my apology ― I prefer to discuss the matter sans name calling.

    It seems to me that elam "doth protest too much". The more he seeks to justify himself in his thread about the Israeli-Palestine Conflict, the more it seems to me that he is deeply prejudiced against the Israeli Jews and prejudiced in favor of the Palestinians, whose governmental charter calls for the total destruction of modern Israel. The map of the Holy Land used by the Palestinians does not include any vestige of Israel.

    elam holds a grudge against Israel for the sins he sees in its past, but he overlooks the present ongoing terrorism to which the Palestinian governments (that of Hamas and that of Mahmoud Abbas) are fully devoted in the present and committed for the future.

    It is enlightening to compare the curriculua of Israeli schools for children with that of Palestinian schools for children...

    I wonder how our fellow TWebbers see this difference of opinion.
    Last edited by John Reece; 01-12-2017, 06:10 AM.

  • #2
    I found elam's views to be disturbing and stopped reading after a bit. Thus, I can't say that I understand his views that well, but it seemed to me that he was criticizing some in Israel who prefer an Israeli one-state solution while at the same time appearing to endorse a Palestinian one-state solution. It may be that the original UN/US idea of a two-state solution was never realistic, but it seems to be becoming ever more unrealistic. Somewhere in this mix is the complicated question of Israel's difficulty coming to terms with itself as a secular or religious nation with a corresponding constitution. Thank you for starting this thread, John.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      ... while at the same time appearing to endorse a Palestinian one-state solution. ...
      It seems my initial impression was wrong. Looking at his most recent post:

      Originally posted by elam View Post
      ... In the latest round of discussion Netanyahu is insisting that any Palestinian state established must be 100% demiliterised and must not have any airports. I find that a reasonable request provided Israel guarantees their security.
      I doubt most Palestinians would consider this reasonable.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
        The title of this thread = the full quote of the entire definition of "anti-Semite" in the current Merriam-Webster dictionary online:

        Definition of anti-Semite

        : someone who hates Jewish people


        TWebber elam has accused me twice of being antisemitic on the basis of an archaic definition of the term; however, the definition he prefers is not the current sense of the word as commonly used and understood, nor as defined above in the current Merriam-Webster dictionary online.
        John, you are forgetting it was you who drew the ant-semitic card first. Directly accusing me, without justification, as being an anti-semite and banned me from your thread discussing whether the USA should leave the UN.

        All I had done is disagree with an aspect of the advocate you were relying on and you had a knee jerk reaction to informed facts.

        As for me accusing you of anti-semitism, you need new glasses I qualified my statement with "if such and such then..."

        Also, I cited the definition given by the Encylopedia Britanica. Given the idea anti-semitic originated in the late 19th century and meant "Jew hater". That is the archaic meaning, the new fabricated meaning is anti-Israel.

        That is in the past lets forget it.
        --------------------

        Currently, the Israeli authorities are pushing the line that to be critical of Israel is to be anti-semitic. Can't see how when only about half of Jews reside in Israel. Are the Jews that prefer to distance themselves from Israel anti-semitic?

        I'm no more anti-Israel than many Jews within and outside of Israel who are directly critical of the system that has evolved there. Type into google "poverty in Israel", "Discrimination of Jews in Israel", "20 families own most of Israeli wealth" etc and you'll encounter multiple Israeli newspapers and Israeli Jews calling out for democracy.

        Not my opinion, but the opinion of Jews surviving in Israel.

        A while ago you told be you are an admirer of Netanyahu, am I an anti-semite if I point out to you that he is under investigation for corruption at the highest Ievel of Israeli jurisprudence?

        Am I anti-semite because I might relate that Israeli (Jewish) activists report that the Ashkenazim treat the Mizrahim deplorably? Or that Israel does not recognise a person as being Jewish unless they have a Jewish mother or have undergone the lengthy conversion process? Or that various Jewish groups in various parts of the world are rejected by Israel because their ancestry can only be traced to a paternal line? Or that Israeli (Jewish) activists have reported that in Israel it is illegal for a Jew to marry a non-Jew? Likewise, if a Jewish woman who is married to a non-Jew desires aliyah she has to either divorce her husband or her husband must undergo the lengthy process of conversion - on completion then they can immigrate.

        My opinions are based on reports by Jews on the ground. I don't have a personal opinion on Israel. I simply observe, as do most people, that since the 1940s they have treated the Palestinians deplorably.

        Is criticism of the nation called Israel anti-semitic? I don't think so, and nor does anyone who is unbiased and who is blessed with a moral conscience...
        --------------------

        One day, when get time read up on Moses Hess, who is said to have been the first Zionist. He is said to have been a Utopian, a Hegelian and a good friend of Karl Marx (though in later life they had a falling out). Apparently Hess was big on "blood purity".

        Also read up on the renowned Marxist Ber Borochov who developed the rigorous policies of the Zionist Project. He argued territorial concentration as a solution to, among other things, the Jewish question. He founded Poalei Zion, the Marxist Zionist Party which supported the Russian Revolution in 1917.

        Also David Ben Gurion who is said to be Israel's founder.. When the Poalei Zion split up, Ben Gurion became the leader of the Social Democrat wing, It is said that he favoured Zionism as a dictatorship and his first priority was to build a strong army (Hagana), which could drive out the Palestinians.

        Also Zeév Jabotinsky. To accelerate the Zionist goals in Mandated Palestine, he sought the support of Mussolini and founded the Jewish terror organisation known as Irgun. He died in 1940.

        Knowing the jaded history of the establishment of the Jewish state is just real history, readily verifiable. Knowing the objectives of the Zionists isn't anti-semitism, it just explains current events.

        The warts-and-allstudy of the political history of Israel is not anti-semitism, it is just academia...

        As an old Hungarian Rabbi, who had survived the concentations camps once told me: We can only change the future if we acknowledge the past...
        --------------------

        "There is a law in Israel, passed in 1985, which forbids political parties to openly oppose the principle of a Jewish state. Neither are they allowed to work for a change of this principle through democratic means. A party so doing will be banned from elections to the Knesset. Democracy is thus denied to those citizens - even Jews - who wish to work within the parliamentary system towards replacing the Jewish state with a secular state which represents all its citizens' equal rights regardless of religion or ethnic origin. This law alone prevents Israel from being seen as a liberal democracy of Western type."
        http://www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/wilhelmson.htm
        Last edited by elam; 01-14-2017, 05:10 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I for one don't consider elam anti-semitic, and I don't think people have interacted with his points in a sound way. Criticism of Israel's action, or acknowledgement of injustice both in terms of how it was established, and how it took the West Bank, does not constitute anti-semitism.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
            It is enlightening to compare the curriculua of Israeli schools for children with that of Palestinian schools for children...
            It is even more enlightening to compare the Israel schools provided to Ashkenazi Jews and those provided to the other Jewish ethnicities and those provided to Israeli-Palestinians...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I found elam's views to be disturbing and stopped reading after a bit. Thus, I can't say that I understand his views that well, but it seemed to me that he was criticizing some in Israel who prefer an Israeli one-state solution while at the same time appearing to endorse a Palestinian one-state solution. It may be that the original UN/US idea of a two-state solution was never realistic, but it seems to be becoming ever more unrealistic. Somewhere in this mix is the complicated question of Israel's difficulty coming to terms with itself as a secular or religious nation with a corresponding constitution. Thank you for starting this thread, John.
              To get upto speed it is just a matter of dating (timing). From 1920 to 1945 the League of Nations plan was for a one state solution with, in the then current projections, a Palestinian majority. By 1937 that plan had become a bit wobbly and discussion about partitioning Palestine ensued. Though the British thought partitioning was impractical, and so via their "White Paper" maintained the original plan. The Zionist leadership who had either Marxist or Fascist tendencies wanted to accelerate the process. At least two Zionist terrorist groups conceived the complete elimination of the Palestinians, and their 100% occupation of Palestine. Then comes 1947 and the UN decision to partition Mandated Palestine.

              At the Jewish Virtual Library there is an excellent explanation of the partition plan and the resulting problems.
              http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tion_plan.html

              Extrapolating from the intrigues outlined in the article we get an idea of the problems from 1967 to the present.

              Soon there will be peace talks (again!). Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are inclined to attend... Imu, they argue that only they can resolve the "Two States" issues. The UN/USA should butt out...
              --------------------

              There is an israeli (Jewish) advocacy group who are pushing for a secular Israeli state - the single state solution where Palestinians are allowed to return to there tradition lands and (in theory) live harmoniously with the Jews. I can't see it happening while the Zionists (as opposed to Jews) demand recognition of a Jews only state...
              Last edited by elam; 01-14-2017, 06:05 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                I for one don't consider elam anti-semitic, and I don't think people have interacted with his points in a sound way. Criticism of Israel's action, or acknowledgement of injustice both in terms of how it was established, and how it took the West Bank, does not constitute anti-semitism.
                Given the experiences of the Zionists under the Czarists, Fascists, Ustashe etc I've always been puzzled how the Zionists could or would replicate such treatment on another ethnic group. It is just something I don't understand...maybe it is just a version of the Stockholm syndrome or maybe it is something else...

                In any case I thank you for understanding that I am neither anti-semitic, anti-Jew or anti-Israel. I'm still deciding my status concerning Zionism - I'm divided - some advocates I'd support (eg: the Utopians), some I wouldn't (eg: the terrorist branches), some I'm half-hearted about (eg: the Marxist = the kibbutzniks).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by elam View Post
                  To get upto speed it is just a matter of dating (timing). From 1920 to 1945 the League of Nations plan was for a one state solution with, in the then current projections, a Palestinian majority. By 1937 that plan had become a bit wobbly and discussion about partitioning Palestine ensued. Though the British thought partitioning was impractical, and so via their "White Paper" maintained the original plan. The Zionist leadership who had either Marxist or Fascist tendencies wanted to accelerate the process. At least two Zionist terrorist groups conceived the complete elimination of the Palestinians, and their 100% occupation of Palestine. Then comes 1947 and the UN decision to partition Mandated Palestine.

                  At the Jewish Virtual Library there is an excellent explanation of the partition plan and the resulting problems.
                  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tion_plan.html

                  Extrapolating from the intrigues outlined in the article we get an idea of the problems from 1967 to the present.

                  Soon there will be peace talks (again!). Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are inclined to attend... Imu, they argue that only they can resolve the "Two States" issues. The UN/USA should butt out...
                  --------------------

                  There is an israeli (Jewish) advocacy group who are pushing for a secular Israeli state - the single state solution where Palestinians are allowed to return to there tradition lands and (in theory) live harmoniously with the Jews. I can't see it happening while the Zionists (as opposed to Jews) demand recognition of a Jews only state...
                  Prior to the UN/US partition plan, as now, there are some Jews who support and other Jews who oppose Zionism. You (or others) cannot simply claim that Jews who support(ed) Zionism are not true Jews.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Personally I have no particular viewpoint as I don't believe it's my conflict to be a part of. I fully recognise the State of Israel's right to exist, whether or not it was unjustly created. I also fully acknowledge that they have a right to defend themselves with appropriate means.

                    However there are severe questions I have about the means they chose to do so. They're the stronger in the pair between them and Palestine. They have the upper hand, and therefore I think criticism should rightly and mainly be with how they're handling things. I also think how they expanded their settlements and took the West Bank, and quickly and opportunistically moved to settle it so that any withdrawing from it would forever be off the political table, was a very foul move. I don't see how anyone can defend the State of Israel in what it did there.

                    Also with how State of Israel has treated Christian archeological sites, where jewish gravesites are treated with the utmost sensitivity, whereas Christian or Muslim gravesites can simple be called 'fictitious' and then bulldozed over by the authorities.

                    So while I support State of Israel, and I'm glad the jewish people have a country to call their own. I don't think they're above criticism.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Prior to the UN/US partition plan, as now, there are some Jews who support and other Jews who oppose Zionism. You (or others) cannot simply claim that Jews who support(ed) Zionism are not true Jews.
                      Which branch of Zionism do you mean?

                      There are/were Marxists, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, Social Democrats, National Socialists and a heap of other minor Zionist parties.

                      My Jewish friends who tend to be market capitalists reject the Zionist parties for obvious reasons (see above). Like most people who live in free societies they are against suppressive regimes. My friends might support Utopian Zionists, except for the fact that none of the multiple Utopian experiments succeeded.

                      What do you mean when you classify someone as a Jew?

                      Even if you and your entire ancestry are/were total atheist and reject the idea of an exclusively Jewish State you remain a Jew if you have an unbroken maternal bloodline that is considered Jewish.

                      In Israel you are a Jew if you were born of a Jewish mother (father's don't count in the determination of whether you are a Jew or not). If your mother is a non-Jew, but your father's mother was a Jew, then you still need to undergo the long process of conversion to be considered a Jew. Once you are considered a Jew, you and your heirs are tainted for eternity (except if you have a Jewish mother and you are male, and you marry a non-Jew then your heirs will not be considered Jews).

                      ps:

                      Forgot to mention that if you are female and your mother is/was a Jew and you marry a non-Jew then your children are considered Jewish even if you raise them as a Christian, Muslim or whatever. The female line never losses their status of being Jewish. The male line will also need to marry someone with the Jewish blood-line for your children to be considered Jewish.

                      The above is the official position. Societally things can be very different. I have a Jewish friend (a Jewess) who was engaged to this Jewish guy. When his family found out that her parents had sent her to a Catholic school to get an advanced education they bent over backwards to break the engagement. Why? They told her she wasn't Jewish enough for their family.
                      Last edited by elam; 01-14-2017, 09:18 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by elam View Post
                        Which branch of Zionism do you mean?

                        There are/were Marxists, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, Social Democrats, National Socialists and a heap of other minor Zionist parties.

                        My Jewish friends who tend to be market capitalists reject the Zionist parties for obvious reasons (see above). Like most people who live in free societies they are against suppressive regimes. My friends might support Utopian Zionists, except for the fact that none of the multiple Utopian experiments succeeded.

                        What do you mean when you classify someone as a Jew?

                        Even if you and your entire ancestry are/were total atheist and reject the idea of an exclusively Jewish State you remain a Jew if you have an unbroken maternal bloodline that is considered Jewish.

                        In Israel you are a Jew if you were born of a Jewish mother (father's don't count in the determination of whether you are a Jew or not). If your mother is a non-Jew, but your father's mother was a Jew, then you still need to undergo the long process of conversion to be considered a Jew. Once you are considered a Jew, you and your heirs are tainted for eternity (except if you have a Jewish mother and you are male, and you marry a non-Jew then your heirs will not be considered Jews).
                        I'm not talking about any particular branches of Zionism; I'm talking about your presumed authority to determine who is and who is not a Jew.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by elam View Post
                          ... Once you are considered a Jew, you and your heirs are tainted for eternity (except if you have a Jewish mother and you are male, and you marry a non-Jew then your heirs will not be considered Jews).
                          Why do you use the word 'tainted'?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            taint
                            tānt
                            noun: taint; plural noun: taints
                            1. 1. a trace of a bad or undesirable quality or substance.
                              "the taint of corruption that adhered to the regime"
                              synonyms: trace, touch, suggestion, hint, tinge;
                            • a thing whose influence or effect is perceived as contaminating or undesirable.
                              "the taint that threatens to stain most of the company's other partners"
                            • an unpleasant smell.
                              "the lingering taint of creosote"

                            verb: taint; 3rd person present: taints; past tense: tainted; past participle: tainted; gerund or present participle: tainting
                            1. 1. contaminate or pollute (something).
                              "the air was tainted by fumes from the cars"
                              synonyms: contaminate, pollute, adulterate, infect, blight, spoil, soil, ruin, destroy; literary befoul
                              "the wilderness is tainted by pollution"
                              antonyms: clean
                            • affect with a bad or undesirable quality.
                              "his administration was tainted by scandal"
                              synonyms: tarnish, sully, blacken, stain, blot, blemish, stigmatize, mar, corrupt, defile, soil, muddy, damage, harm, hurt;
                              antonyms: improve
                            • archaic
                              (of food or water) become contaminated or polluted.

                            Origin
                            Middle English (as a verb in the sense ‘convict, prove guilty’): partly from Old French teint ‘tinged,’ based on Latin tingere ‘to dye, tinge’; partly a shortening of attaint.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Why do you use the word 'tainted'?
                              Maybe you didn't see it, but he also used the term "final solution" when talking about Jews in a another thread.

                              Comment

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