Praying to Jesus

[wonbyone]

I have no dispute with what they are saying. We do teach that one should pray to the Father in Jesus name. The opening and closing prayers in our meetings are done this way.

But I do hope that I have given a new perspective. A perspective that certainly demolishes our critics claim that we do not pray to or praise Jesus, for we most certainly do, in a most enthusiastic way! And at the most sacred times (worship service singing).

I could say more, but I don't have the time for a long post.

God bless,
Brother Aardvark

So who is right you or them?

[jo7241974]

Glad to hear it. Now explain that to Jo, Jeff, and OtherCheek.

So Othercheek, Jo, jeff? What do you have to say now?

Like BA said:

The claim that Mormons never pray to the other personages of the trinity is simply baseless.

The standard definition of prayer which does not include song, poetry, and such, IS directed to Father just as Jesus taught. We have also explained that we use other methods of prayer for praising and worshiping all members of the Godhead. All of this is in agreement with what BA has discussed.

To catch up on other posts I have not had time to respond to, I would like to also add a few more thoughts. I have added the bolding.

3Nephi 13:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

The verses you point to in 3Nephi 19 were preceded by pertinent verses in that same chapter.

3Nephi 19:6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus. 7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people. 8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken--nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken--behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus. 9 And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them. 10 And when they had thus prayed they went down unto the water's edge, and the multitude followed them. 11 And it came to pass that Nephi went down into the water and was baptized. 12 And he came up out of the water and began to baptize. And he baptized all those whom Jesus had chosen. 13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized, and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire. 14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them. 15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them. 16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them the they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down unon the earth. 17 And it came to pass they when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.

Please note that Jesus did NOT command them to pray to Him. Then we move on to the next verse:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their lord and their God.

Remember that back in 3Nephi 13:6 Jesus had taught them to pray to Father. Yet, when Jesus stood among them when they had received the Holy Ghost, and He asked them to pray, they did NOT pray to Father as He had taught them. Filled with the Holy Ghost and having Jesus in their midst, they prayed to Jesus instead of Father. That is why Jesus went to Father with His intercessory prayer. He even told Father that they were praying to Him instead of Father BECAUSE He was with them.

All of these verses are in complete agreement with what I have already claimed. If you chose to disagree and claim something else, or claim that it was NOT because Jesus was with them that they prayed to Him, that is your choice.

The message is clear. We are taught to pray to the Father. There are times portrayed in both the BoM and the Bible, that while Jesus was among the people, they would sometimes pray to Jesus instead of Father. But that does not mean that the teaching to pray to Father in Jesus' name is meant to be ignored. The circumstances under which people prayed to Jesus were extraordinary. They are not likely to be duplicated in the lives of the majority of mankind.

All of our prayers will be heard, regardless of the method or who in the Godhead we address them to. There are moments in everyone's life when words of thanksgiving or sudden desperation will be uttered to any and/or all persons of the Godhead; yet this is not our standard method of communication with God. We sing praises and worship the entire Godhead; song and poetry and such is the form of prayer we use for all three members of the Godhead. Unless Jesus is in our midst, as understood by the generally understood definition of prayer, we address our prayers to Father.

God bless,

jo

[wonbyone]

Like BA said:

The claim that Mormons never pray to the other personages of the trinity is simply baseless.

The standard definition of prayer which does not include song, poetry, and such, IS directed to Father just as Jesus taught. We have also explained that we use other methods of prayer for praising and worshiping all members of the Godhead. All of this is in agreement with what BA has discussed.

To catch up on other posts I have not had time to respond to, I would like to also add a few more thoughts. I have added the bolding.

3Nephi 13:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

The verses you point to in 3Nephi 19 were preceded by pertinent verses in that same chapter.

3Nephi 19:6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus. 7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people. 8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken--nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken--behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus. 9 And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them. 10 And when they had thus prayed they went down unto the water's edge, and the multitude followed them. 11 And it came to pass that Nephi went down into the water and was baptized. 12 And he came up out of the water and began to baptize. And he baptized all those whom Jesus had chosen. 13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized, and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire. 14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them. 15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them. 16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them the they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down unon the earth. 17 And it came to pass they when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.

Please note that Jesus did NOT command them to pray to Him. Then we move on to the next verse:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their lord and their God.

Remember that back in 3Nephi 13:6 Jesus had taught them to pray to Father. Yet, when Jesus stood among them when they had received the Holy Ghost, and He asked them to pray, they did NOT pray to Father as He had taught them. Filled with the Holy Ghost and having Jesus in their midst, they prayed to Jesus instead of Father. That is why Jesus went to Father with His intercessory prayer. He even told Father that they were praying to Him instead of Father BECAUSE He was with them.

All of these verses are in complete agreement with what I have already claimed. If you chose to disagree and claim something else, or claim that it was NOT because Jesus was with them that they prayed to Him, that is your choice.

The message is clear. We are taught to pray to the Father. There are times portrayed in both the BoM and the Bible, that while Jesus was among the people, they would sometimes pray to Jesus instead of Father. But that does not mean that the teaching to pray to Father in Jesus' name is meant to be ignored. The circumstances under which people prayed to Jesus were extraordinary. They are not likely to be duplicated in the lives of the majority of mankind.

All of our prayers will be heard, regardless of the method or who in the Godhead we address them to. There are moments in everyone's life when words of thanksgiving or sudden desperation will be uttered to any and/or all persons of the Godhead; yet this is not our standard method of communication with God. We sing praises and worship the entire Godhead; song and poetry and such is the form of prayer we use for all three members of the Godhead. Unless Jesus is in our midst, as understood by the generally understood definition of prayer, we address our prayers to Father.

God bless,

jo

I guess your forgetting this entire thread where you, Oc, Jeff, and ldstrue were arguing tooth and nail that mormons do not and should not pray to Jesus. Now you have a new lds poster saying "But I do hope that I have given a new perspective. A perspective that certainly demolishes our critics claim that we do not pray to or praise Jesus, for we most certainly do, in a most enthusiastic way! And at the most sacred times (worship service singing)" and now you are agreeing with him, have you changed from your earlier stance? It is plain as day that brotherardvark disagrees with you,Jeff, Oc, and ldstrue on many lds doctrines, at least have the fortitude to admit it!

[jo7241974]

I guess your forgetting this entire thread where you, Oc, Jeff, and ldstrue were arguing tooth and nail that mormons do not and should not pray to Jesus. Now you have a new lds poster saying "But I do hope that I have given a new perspective. A perspective that certainly demolishes our critics claim that we do not pray to or praise Jesus, for we most certainly do, in a most enthusiastic way! And at the most sacred times (worship service singing)" and now you are agreeing with him, have you changed from your earlier stance? It is plain as day that brotherardvark disagrees with you,Jeff, Oc, and ldstrue on many lds doctrines, at least have the fortitude to admit it!

You choose to remain blind. So be it.

God bless,

jo

[OtherCheek]

I guess your forgetting this entire thread where you, Oc, Jeff, and ldstrue were arguing tooth and nail that mormons do not and should not pray to Jesus. Now you have a new lds poster saying "But I do hope that I have given a new perspective. A perspective that certainly demolishes our critics claim that we do not pray to or praise Jesus, for we most certainly do, in a most enthusiastic way! And at the most sacred times (worship service singing)" and now you are agreeing with him, have you changed from your earlier stance? It is plain as day that brotherardvark disagrees with you,Jeff, Oc, and ldstrue on many lds doctrines, at least have the fortitude to admit it!

If we did disagree, so what?

Did BA ever say that he starts out his prayer saying:

"Dear Jesus in Heaven..."

[BrotherAardvark]

If we did disagree, so what?

Did BA ever say that he starts out his prayer saying:

"Dear Jesus in Heaven..."

I've never begun a vocal prayer in that way.

[jo7241974]

I've never begun a vocal prayer in that way.

You are such a radical!!! I haven't either.

God bless,

jo

[OtherCheek]

I've never begun a vocal prayer in that way.

Thanks. I was pretty sure you didn't do that.

[nrajeff]

because I want to. Jesus experienced human life and persecution. He is still fully human as I am. and he is fully God.

----So you believe that The Person of the Son is the only one of the 3 Trinity Persons who is fully human (which means the "co-equal" clause of the Creed isn't 100% true). Then perhaps you can answer 1x1's concern:

Maybe the mormons do not believe that Jesus is omnipresent?

because anyone who is 100% human can't really be literally omnipresent. That would require dividing the human person's corporeal body into very, very small pieces.

why can't YOU ask such a request specifically from Jesus instead of the Father?

---You CAN do it. It's just disobeying His COMMANDMENT if you do. You can rob banks and manufacture and sell crystal meth, too, but it's not really considered a great idea.


when thou prayest,.....pray to thy Father.... Matt 6:6

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father Matt 6:9

When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven Luke 11:2

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col. 1:3

Why is it WRONG to pray to Jesus?

---Because Jesus wants you to pray to His Father. If He wanted you to pray to Him, there would be a verse in the Bible saying "Thou shalt pray to me, not to my Father."

Again, the Nephites did and Jesus blessed them and told them to keep praying to him

--I think your daily BOM reading needs to continue until you get to the part where He told them to stop that.

[jo7241974]

----So you believe that The Person of the Son is the only one of the 3 Trinity Persons who is fully human (which means the "co-equal" clause of the Creed isn't 100% true). Then perhaps you can answer 1x1's concern:



because anyone who is 100% human can't really be literally omnipresent. That would require dividing the human person's corporeal body into very, very small pieces.


---You CAN do it. It's just disobeying His COMMANDMENT if you do. You can rob banks and manufacture and sell crystal meth, too, but it's not really considered a great idea.


when thou prayest,.....pray to thy Father.... Matt 6:6

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father Matt 6:9

When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven Luke 11:2

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col. 1:3


---Because Jesus wants you to pray to His Father. If He wanted you to pray to Him, there would be a verse in the Bible saying "Thou shalt pray to me, not to my Father."


--I think your daily BOM reading needs to continue until you get to the part where He told them to stop that.

Hi Jeff!

He just needs to read my post #242 I made a few hours ago.

God bless,

jo

[wonbyone]

----So you believe that The Person of the Son is the only one of the 3 Trinity Persons who is fully human (which means the "co-equal" clause of the Creed isn't 100% true). Then perhaps you can answer 1x1's concern:



because anyone who is 100% human can't really be literally omnipresent. That would require dividing the human person's corporeal body into very, very small pieces.


---You CAN do it. It's just disobeying His COMMANDMENT if you do. You can rob banks and manufacture and sell crystal meth, too, but it's not really considered a great idea.


when thou prayest,.....pray to thy Father.... Matt 6:6

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father Matt 6:9

When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven Luke 11:2

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col. 1:3


---Because Jesus wants you to pray to His Father. If He wanted you to pray to Him, there would be a verse in the Bible saying "Thou shalt pray to me, not to my Father."


--I think your daily BOM reading needs to continue until you get to the part where He told them to stop that.

I guess someone forgot to tell the mormons that Christians believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. If mormons do not believe Jesus is omnipresent how do you explain the following verses?

Matthew 18:20 (New King James Version)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Matthew 28:20 (New King James Version)

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[a]

[wonbyone]

If we did disagree, so what?

Did BA ever say that he starts out his prayer saying:

"Dear Jesus in Heaven..."

No but YOU have argued that mormons do not and are not to pray to Jesus and BA has argued the opposite! Now you are trying to argue both sides which quite honestly is laughable! Oh and nice straw man by the way!

[wonbyone]

You choose to remain blind. So be it.

God bless,

jo

I'm going to to post a poll and see who's blind!

[jo7241974]

I guess someone forgot to tell the mormons that Christians believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. If mormons do not believe Jesus is omnipresent how do you explain the following verses?

Matthew 18:20 (New King James Version)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Matthew 28:20 (New King James Version)

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[a]

Someone forgot to teach you how to read..... Address the actual statements Jeff made.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

I'm going to to post a poll and see who's blind!

Oh goodie!! Another show-of-hands determination of truth!!! BTW, are you going to include a braille version of your poll?

God bless,

jo