Life after Death

[harlan]

What do you personally believe about what happens when you die? Is this different from the belief of your church or faith?

[RBerman]

I hold the position of my church, as summarized in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAP. XXXII. - Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead.

1. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up, with the self-same bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls for ever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His own glorious body.

[harlan]

Thanks RBerman. Forgive my ignorance, but how did the Westminster Confession of Faith come about?

[Tanakh Keeper]

What do you personally believe about what happens when you die? Is this different from the belief of your church or faith?

Judaism doesn’t have one fixed dogma regarding the afterlife. I’ve personally talked with people in the same denomination who had varying beliefs. The reason for the variability is that the Torah doesn’t mention much about the afterlife. The Jewish bible is not focused on life after the body dies, it is focused on life in the here and now. The Talmud talks more about the afterlife, but concludes that the true answer is unknowable (by humans). There are a few beliefs about the afterlife that are common to Judaism. Judaism believes that souls are eternal and bodies are mortal. Judaism believes that the only eternal resting place is Heaven. Judaism believes that at least most souls must be purified for a time before going to Heaven. Ummm…I think I’ve fairly stated the points of agreement.

I personally believe that most people will go to Gehinom for a variable period of up to one year in duration. Gehinom is a place in which the soul is cleansed. The specific length of time of each soul’s duration in Gehinom is dependent on their behavior while their soul was attached to their body. After their soul is cleansed, every soul will go on to Heaven. There will be a few people righteous enough to go straight to Heaven, but the vast majority will spend some time in Gehinom. In Heaven, we will each experience the ultimate closeness with our Creator.

[RBerman]

Thanks RBerman. Forgive my ignorance, but how did the Westminster Confession of Faith come about?

Successive rulers of England flip-flopped between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism in the 16th and 17th centuries. The British parliament asked Great Britain's churchmen to write a consensus document explaining what they thought the Bible really taught. They met at Westminster and over several years produced several documents:

* A Confession of Faith with brief chapters arranged topically, like the sample you see above.

* A Shorter Catechism covering the same material in Q&A format, intended for teaching the laity.

* A Larger Catechism of Q&A expanding on the topics of the shorter catechism, intended for teaching the clergy.

* A Directory for Public Worhip outlining (no surprise) what was and was not acceptable in public worship services.

And a few smaller bits as well.

[harlan]

Thanks for the information Berman and Tanakh Keeper.

Baha'u'llah teaches that the human soul is eternal and does not die. The physical body is composed of the elements of the earth and will eventually decompose and go back to the earth. He speaks of the next world after the death of the body as being so wonderful that words can't adequately describe it. He says we're like a bird confined to the cage of our body. Death is the breaking of that cage and freedom for the soul to fly in the limitless spaces of the spiritual worlds. He says that just as the child in the womb can have hardly any understanding of what the world is like after birth, the same is true for us in trying to visualize the next world. We have no experiences to compare to it. And just as a child is sometimes born blind or with some other handicap, so are people sometimes handicapped when they pass on because of a lack of spiritual development. They pass into the next world but are limited in their ability to function there in comparison to souls who have walked in the ways of God in this world. Those who are near to God, in this world or the next, are in heaven, and those who are remote from God are in hell. At the time of death we will be called to account for how we have lived our lives. The purpose of our lives is to learn to love and to acquire knowledge, both in this world and the next. No one is forever condemned to remoteness from God, but all have the opportunity to continue to learn to love and to gain knowledge. Baha'u'llah explained these things because He was asked, not because we should focus our lives on it. People asked questions in letters to Him and He responded in writing, thus preserving His answers for posterity. His teachings are very much focused on what the humanity needs now, and how it is to be brought about. If we walk in the ways of God and live a life of service to the human race, then we have nothing to worry about.

[RBerman]

How sad to think that your eternal fate rests on your efforts to "walk in the ways of God." God is perfect and holy and expects perfection from his followers. The only way we can achieve that is through Jessu Christ, who lived a perfect life which can be counted as the perfection God demands of us, and who died a sacrificial death to pay the penalty that our sins merit. Turn to Jesus as your only hope to be right with God, and then you will be in the proper frame of mind to live a life of service not only to the human race, but more importantly to God.

[harlan]

How sad to think that your eternal fate rests on your efforts to "walk in the ways of God." God is perfect and holy and expects perfection from his followers. The only way we can achieve that is through Jessu Christ, who lived a perfect life which can be counted as the perfection God demands of us, and who died a sacrificial death to pay the penalty that our sins merit. Turn to Jesus as your only hope to be right with God, and then you will be in the proper frame of mind to live a life of service not only to the human race, but more importantly to God.

Please tell me from the words of Christ how you know God expects perfection from us? That's something I never heard as a Christian. Are you saying that the millions of people who lived before Christ had no chance for salvation?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Just this evening, I was having discussions with other Jews on a different topic. But the issue of the afterlife came up in these discussions. The consensus around the table was, who cares? The afterlife isn't the point of our lives here on Earth. Plus, we will all end up in Heaven eventually, so detailed discussions of further details were pointless.

[RBerman]

How sad to think that your eternal fate rests on your efforts to "walk in the ways of God." God is perfect and holy and expects perfection from his followers. The only way we can achieve that is through Jessu Christ, who lived a perfect life which can be counted as the perfection God demands of us, and who died a sacrificial death to pay the penalty that our sins merit. Turn to Jesus as your only hope to be right with God, and then you will be in the proper frame of mind to live a life of service not only to the human race, but more importantly to God.

Please tell me from the words of Christ how you know God expects perfection from us? That's something I never heard as a Christian. Are you saying that the millions of people who lived before Christ had no chance for salvation?

You apparently never heard Christianity as a "Christian," then. Your request is not properly framed, for the words of Christ comprise only a tiny fraction of the words in the Bible. If the Bible as a whole is not trustworthy, then neither are the words in it attributed to Christ. So I'll answer your question from the Bible as a whole.

You actually raise two separate questions:

(1) Does God expect perfection from men?
(2) Has God provided a means of salvation for those who lived and died prior to Christ's historical work?

Let's deal with (1) first.

James 2:10

whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Bible teaches repeatedly that God's standard of acceptance is not, "DId you try really hard to be good?" or, "Did you do more good than harm?" but rather, "Are you perfectly good, as God is, and as Christ is?" An absurdly high standard? Indeed! But it speaks to the height of God's holiness. Any lesser standard, with God winking at human sin, would be a denial of who God is. If that were the end of the story, then heaven would be empty. But God has provided a way that men can be counted as righteous even though they are in fact sinners.

Romans 3:21-25, 27-28

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood...Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Christ lived a perfect life, died an undeserved death, and rose victorious from the grave, never to die again. His death pays the penalty which our sin deserves, for those who have faith in Christ's person and work. And his perfect life counts as the perfect life God expects from us. So our acceptance before God is not based on how good we are, but based on how good Christ is. Christ's righteousness is credited to our account, as it were. Thus:

Romans 4:1-8

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him." (Psalm 32)

This declaration that, "You are reckoned to be righteous through Christ" irrespective of your own works is what the Bible calls, "justification." Cease your efforts to earn God's favor through good deeds. It's a fool's errand; you'll never meet His standard. Plead only the merits of Christ, who lived a perfect life, and whose death can be counted as the death which you deserve for any and all of your sins.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

What do you personally believe about what happens when you die? Is this different from the belief of your church or faith?

Answering what happens upon the cessation of life forces within a human body is very difficult because the answer given can only be understood within a frame of reference of the listener or reader and therefore is by definition distorted by both the limitations of language and differences in conceptualization between the writer and reader. That is challenging for both. I write poorly so what you take from what I will say is going to be limited by my insufficient communication skills. First let me point out that Jesus demonstrated that we do not cease or get "extinguished". If you truly want to understand or even glimpse the magnificent confidence of the Apostles look no further than Thomas. Then please wrap your conscious mind carefully around John 20:29. Do you believe without being a first hand witness or is it all a fairy tale to you? Now please bear with me a few more minutes.

The mind, body and soul - these are what I will speak to. They are tightly integrated and bound together in a human manifestation in this materiality. When the body no longer functions as a unified living human the bond between these three does not disintegrate immediately. The process takes approximately 3 days. The mind which you may think of for simplification as a multi-tiered matrix of subconscious (those mechanisms that keep our hearts beating and lungs breathing), the conscious (those processes that allow you to read this text and relate constructs such as logic), and the super-conscious (the level of understanding of the soul in all its experiences both here and elsewhere); ceases only in its first 2 tier functions. The body while no longer living as a sentient unified human still lives in the individual cells until each of the billions has reached a state of decomposition or individual cellular death. Organ transplant technology is based on that reality. The soul continues living as it is of eternal substance but its awareness is distorted and you can think of it as being in a somewhat dreamlike state similar to various experiences you have each night during certain rhythms of sleep. It awakens only when the release process is complete and even then the disorientation varies between souls depending on many things beyond my ability to cover in this answer but which may be thought of as its level of spiritual development for purpose of simplification. One of the difficulties of describing this release process is the difficulty of communicating space/time manifestations contrasted to time/space manifestations. I really can't adequately describe it in text so I'll simplify. One is experiences in physical realms separated along time while the other is experiences in time separated by the physical axis. I'm sure that sounds strange. One is like walking down a road and the physical events happen in a time sequence. The other is like moving within time and the physical is dependent on where you are in time. I'm sure that is clear as mud. Both exist. Suffice it to say theoretical physics is getting closer to understanding this but is not there yet.

So where does this get us to in understanding? Probably not very far. But then you see Jesus Christ of Nazareth did not say understand me, He said believe in me. He lived in human body, died in it and returned to show conclusively that we continue after the demise of the physical body (which is simply dust returning to dust). As the anointed one He can do a transmutation of body and appear in the flesh within locked chambers at will. And along the way he said love God with all your heart (body), soul and mind and love others. Follow that and don't concern yourself with understanding how it all works. After all, you will experience it and in doing that you will gain the understanding. If you absolutely must understand it now then look within and not at what I have written. I did not write this for debate. If it helps anyone then I am pleased. If you get nothing from it then please disregard it.

[harlan]

Eeset,

Thanks so much for sharing. You did a great job. You mentioned that physical death takes a period of time before every cell decomposes, which is true. I've recently seen a medical program in which it was stressed that it is hard to tell when death occurs, especially when the body is chilled such as falling in ice cold water. One woman was under icy water for about an hour and was revived because the cold prevented the decomposition of brain cells and others. So she appeared to be dead with no heart beat and no breathing for that hour. My question to you concerns experiences many thousands of people have had in which they reported leaving their bodies when they were apparently dead, such as in drowning or while surgery was being performed. These people report usually going through a tunnel and approaching a Light from which they could feel this intense love radiating to them. Sometimes they report seeing and talking with their dead relatives who tell them it's not their time yet. This process did not take days, but rather happened suddenly as their bodies were in the beginning stresses of dying. Do you know anything about this?

Harlan

[harlan]

RBerman,

I'm glad to see you using the Bible as a standard rather than church doctrine and I thank you for motivating me to once again plunge into the fathomless spiritual lessons it provides. My feeling is that everything in the Bible is authentic, but the power and insight of Jesus' words are much greater than any of the others. Below are a few of the jewels I uncovered for your consideration, not that you haven't read them before:

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
(King James Bible, Luke)

10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(King James Bible, Mark)

The lessons I gleaned from this are (1) Control your anger and don't call any one a fool. (2) Jesus put a strong emphasis on actually doing what He told people to do. He did not say that believing in Him was enough. (3) To the man who asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life he said to follow the Ten Commandments and then sell all that he possessed, give the money to the poor, take up his cross and follow Him. (4) Jesus called down the man for calling Him good, saying that only God is good.

I know that there are certain orders in the Catholic Church who actually live lives of poverty while serving Christ, but they are taken care of by the Church. I have never seen this teaching lived out in ordinary Christian lives, nor have I heard Christian leaders advising their flocks to obey this commandment of Jesus. And yet this commandment deals with the topic of this thread: eternal life, or what happens when you die.

I agree that the eternal goal for man is to approach perfection, but just as only God is good, only God is perfect.

I'll give you a little fatherly advice. Don't presume to tell anyone what they should believe and look down on them for their stupidity. This is counterproductive. The best you can do is to present the beauty and power of Jesus' words to other souls. In this day and age people tend to think for themselves and see with their own eyes. This overbearing type of evangelism is just as outdated as the burning heretics at the stake or the Inquisition.

[RBerman]

The lessons I gleaned from this are (1) Control your anger and don't call any one a fool. (2) Jesus put a strong emphasis on actually doing what He told people to do. He did not say that believing in Him was enough. (3) To the man who asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life he said to follow the Ten Commandments and then sell all that he possessed, give the money to the poor, take up his cross and follow Him. (4) Jesus called down the man for calling Him good, saying that only God is good.

I know that there are certain orders in the Catholic Church who actually live lives of poverty while serving Christ, but they are taken care of by the Church. I have never seen this teaching lived out in ordinary Christian lives, nor have I heard Christian leaders advising their flocks to obey this commandment of Jesus. And yet this commandment deals with the topic of this thread: eternal life, or what happens when you die.

I agree that the eternal goal for man is to approach perfection, but just as only God is good, only God is perfect. I'll give you a little fatherly advice. Don't presume to tell anyone what they should believe and look down on them for their stupidity. This is counterproductive. The best you can do is to present the beauty and power of Jesus' words to other souls. In this day and age people tend to think for themselves and see with their own eyes. This overbearing type of evangelism is just as outdated as the burning heretics at the stake or the Inquisition.

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I think you're stupid; quite the opposite. But I make no qualms about telling you what you should believe, because I speak not my own opinions, but rather I reiterate what Scripture has already revealed. If you believe Scripture teaches something else than what I say, then show me.

You gave a catena of Scriptures in which Jesus gives numerous ethical instructions. True enough. The Bible says much about how the follower of God is to walk through life. All those sayings of Jesus are part of Jesus' explanation of what it means to perfectly keep the law. That's exactly my point: God's standard for "good" is unreachably high. God demands not that we approach perfection, but that we achieve it. We can never be declared righteous by our attempts to keep the law, because we never meet that standard. That's why, although we are commanded to keep the law, our right-standing with God is not based on our failure to keep the law. Rather, God offers that Christ's right-standing with God can be counted as ours, and that Christ's death can be counted as the death which our imperfect law-keeping merits.

So by all means, continue in your efforts to live rightly. But cast aside all hope that such efforts can earn you right-standing with God. Christ offers to share his right-standing with "the man who does not work, but who trusts God, who justifies the wicked." Admit that you are wicked (as am I!), but that Christ is righteous, and that his righteousness can be counted as yours. See yourself the way God sees you.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,

Thanks so much for sharing. You did a great job. You mentioned that physical death takes a period of time before every cell decomposes, which is true. I've recently seen a medical program in which it was stressed that it is hard to tell when death occurs, especially when the body is chilled such as falling in ice cold water. One woman was under icy water for about an hour and was revived because the cold prevented the decomposition of brain cells and others. So she appeared to be dead with no heart beat and no breathing for that hour. My question to you concerns experiences many thousands of people have had in which they reported leaving their bodies when they were apparently dead, such as in drowning or while surgery was being performed. These people report usually going through a tunnel and approaching a Light from which they could feel this intense love radiating to them. Sometimes they report seeing and talking with their dead relatives who tell them it's not their time yet. This process did not take days, but rather happened suddenly as their bodies were in the beginning stresses of dying. Do you know anything about this?

Harlan

Yes. Out of body experiences are really not that unusual and in fact can be learned through various disciplines but also occur to al of us but typically without recall. Part of the integral blessings of this materiality is the veil between the super conscious and the conscious minds. Without that veil or disconnect your experiences in this life would be wholly different in character and the intensity of opportunity to change would be diminished. In an out of body experience the bonds between body, soul and mind are not severed. I can't give you an understanding of how this functions. I do not comprehend the mechanics sufficiently to set it forth in such things as mathematical equations but understand it through experience. You might conceptually think of the bonds like the gravity which causes the earth to continue its elliptical orbit around the sun although that is a weak example. The earth will continue but should the sun die or alter or vanish the earth would travel a trajectory off into space no longer bonded to the previous system.

Your question has several other aspects such as the tunneling perceptions, the light, the interactions with others etc. The tunneling is not the same as a physical journey through say a train tunnel but rather is the dawning of the awareness of the super conscious mind. It is like being focused intensely on a cell phone call while driving and suddenly becoming aware that you are in fact about to slam into the vehicle in front of you or run off the road. Part of you always knew you were driving but the phone call had your attention until something intense re focused you. Perhaps another example is being awakened by a physical event while sleeping peacefully. Maybe the space shuttle created a sonic boom or your child screamed and suddenly you snap from a pleasant dream back into consciousness. As to the light you must surely realize that the physical body has five primary senses with the eyes being bio-mechanical devices providing input to the conscious mind. The soul "sees" without the physical input devices such as eyes and nose and ears etc. Again it is virtually impossible or at least beyond my capability to explain how the soul perceives its surroundings and experiences. I can tell you that the "light" is always here. In fact one of the most profound statements in the Bible is that God separated the light from the darkness for within that you have the very secret of the creation of what we know as the physical realm. The very splendor of the cosmos is vibratory manifestation through what you might think of as a slowing or reduction in the velocity of that which is all resulting in both time and space as we perceive them. It will not be religious doctrines and institutions that "prove" God is but rather science if it's progress is not interrupted by cataclysmic change. As to interactions with others, yes. Communication is always possible through the veil and love is beyond an emotion it is a force. If you would like a way to ponder this materiality from a "sequence" or human mental construct into pieces the words free will, light, love would be one approach. Both words and the limitations of the very tiny human mind make conceptualization difficult for us.

If you have sort of followed my inept attempt to communicate up to this point then the question remains as to how sometimes the veil is pierced. What allows the conscious retention of experiences which would not normally make it through the veil. There are many ways. One of these is love. As a force (not an emotion as we typically speak of it) love can break through the veil. Again I can not explain adequately the mechanics but merely provide the construct for you to examine as you will. Healing is an example of the power of love. A healer does nothing of themselves but provides a channel for love which can literally correct physical conditions. It is like a wire or water pipe that when opened enough or configured free of blockages or impurities can allow the passage of current or water. A wire of pure silver freely passes electricity while one of graphite or hastelloy passes far less and with sufficient corruption or corrosion at terminal points will pass little or none. The retention of memories from beyond the veil is similar to healing in that both bridge across realms normally not directly interactive. They are both loving events. Such is the power of love.

I know my communication on these things is sorely inadequate. If they are helpful in any small way I am pleased. I say again look within for you can gain far greater understanding there than from anything I would write. Even saying look within is a poor communication. It is rather a listening free of all worldly sensory inputs that will open up such to you and it will be only a trickle at first. Jesus did not only "go off to pray" at times but He removed himself from worldly interferences and inputs in order to listen, harmonize, align, receive, join with or however you want to describe being in this world yet not being of this world.