Life after Death

[RBerman]

Until you can admit that you are a sinner in the sight of God, justly deserving his displeasure, and without hope except for his sovereign mercy, you will never be ready to learn from Jesus. This seems like an irreconcilable divide between Jesus and Baha'u'llah, however much the latter may have appreciated much of what Jesus had to say on other matters.

I don't believe that I said that I was not a sinner. It is the word "wicked" that I objected to. I don't agree that babies are "born in sin" either. I just don't like the mind-game that some Christians play in which people are pounded with the idea that they are inherently wicked. I don't see this as the truth at all...the demonizing of human nature has not produced good people. Baha'u'llah's approach does cause improvement in human character. Look at the good qualities of people and not the bad. See them as immature but not evil. People respond to love positively and to judgement negatively. I don't see this as being against the teachings of Jesus.

That's the thing, Harlan: from the Biblical worldview, sin is wickedness. It's more like cancer than it is like "You're going to be six feet tall, but right now you're only five feet. Just keep growing."

1 John 3:4

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

What law? The law of God. Sin is rebellion against God, and anyone who sees God as holy should see sin as offensive, because that's how God sees it. I agree that "Demonizing human nature does not produce good people." How could it? The evil of men is not the solution, but it is the problem, and the solution will not come until the problem has been identified. Jesus said a lot about love, and a lot about judgment too. Form your worldview from the whole Bible.

[NormATive]

Form your worldview from the whole Bible.

Which one? The one that teaches that the Creation is "good" or the one that teaches it is "wicked?"

The doctrine of original sin is just plain weird.

NORM

[RBerman]

Which one? The one that teaches that the Creation is "good" or the one that teaches it is "wicked?"

Those doctrines are not in opposition. Did you ever read a book where a character was alive at the beginning, but then several chapters later he was dead? I trust you did not find that state of affairs confusing or "weird."

[NormATive]

Those doctrines are not in opposition. Did you ever read a book where a character was alive at the beginning, but then several chapters later he was dead? I trust you did not find that state of affairs confusing or "weird."

I don't understand what your illustration has to do with the fact that there are two polar opposite world views contained in the Bible as a whole.

NORM

[RBerman]

I don't understand what your illustration has to do with the fact that there are two polar opposite world views contained in the Bible as a whole.

Being alive or dead are polar opposites too. But when they occur in sequence rather than being simultaneous descriptions of the present, there's no reason for confusion. The world was good immediately upon its creation, but it did not stay that way, and it is not that way now, but it will be that way again. Is that clearer?

[NormATive]

Being alive or dead are polar opposites too. But when they occur in sequence rather than being simultaneous descriptions of the present, there's no reason for confusion. The world was good immediately upon its creation, but it did not stay that way, and it is not that way now, but it will be that way again. Is that clearer?

I wasn't referring to the creation myth story. I was referring to the fundamental assumption of the earlier Old Testament that the creation is inherently good (people can act badly, which is WHY the Law was given to mankind) and the later development of the "bad, or "cursed earth" philosophy dominant in the New Testament (this is where the concept of "original sin" was first developed very crudely. The fundamentalist movement of the early 20th century further solidified it as a primary doctrine of the evangelical churches).

This is why Jews are very different from Christians in their world views.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption the Bible is reliable at all. But, you just can't deny the two world views when you consider the Bible as a whole as you suggested earlier.

Personally, I believe the Bible is a hodgepodge of writings from many, many competing theists (explains the divergent world views) with massive editing and massaging (particularly the New Testament that I believe was intentionally written to create the new Christian religion by forcing it to comply with well known prophecy (explains the two donkeys contradiction being debated in another thread - Mark was written prior to the attempt to create the new religion and Matthew "corrected" it by making the story conform with prophecy).

NORM

[RBerman]

With such wildly different understandings of the nature of Scripture, it's to be expected that we have wildly different understandings of the content and purpose of Scripture.

[NormATive]

With such wildly different understandings of the nature of Scripture, it's to be expected that we have wildly different understandings of the content and purpose of Scripture.

How is your "understandings of the nature of Scripture" different from anyone else's? Most people view Scripture as describing and relating theological philosophies and constructs. Judaism derives its primary instruction from the Pentateuch whereas Christianity from the New Testament. In the case of evangelical brands of Christianity; Paul's letters.

Perhaps I am wrong, but you seem to be attempting to set up an "I'm right - you're wrong" scenario.

I think the nature of theology, since it is a human attempt to describe things unseen, is such that there is no wrong answer.

NORM

[RBerman]

How is your "understandings of the nature of Scripture" different from anyone else's? Most people view Scripture as describing and relating theological philosophies and constructs. Judaism derives its primary instruction from the Pentateuch whereas Christianity from the New Testament. In the case of evangelical brands of Christianity; Paul's letters.

Perhaps I am wrong, but you seem to be attempting to set up an "I'm right - you're wrong" scenario.

I think the nature of theology, since it is a human attempt to describe things unseen, is such that there is no wrong answer.

In other words, you are saying that you are right and I am wrong about whether there can be an "I'm right - you're wrong" answer in theology. Your position appears to be self-defeating.

[harlan]

Below are some quotes from Baha'u'llah concerning the topic:

14. O SON OF MAN!
Thou art My dominion and My dominion perisheth not; wherefore fearest thou thy perishing? Thou art My light and My light shall never be extinguished; why dost thou dread extinction? Thou art My glory and My glory fadeth not; thou art My robe and My robe shall never be outworn. Abide then in thy love for Me, that thou mayest find Me in the realm of glory.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

31. O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

32. O SON OF THE SUPREME!
I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

7. O SON OF LOVE!
Thou art but one step away from the glorious heights above and from the celestial tree of love. Take thou one pace and with the next advance into the immortal realm and enter the pavilion of eternity. Give ear then to that which hath been revealed by the pen of glory.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

39. O OFFSPRING OF DUST!
Be not content with the ease of a passing day, and deprive not thyself of everlasting rest. Barter not the garden of eternal delight for the dust-heap of a mortal world. Up from thy prison ascend unto the glorious meads above, and from thy mortal cage wing thy flight unto the paradise of the Placeless.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)
It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths....
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 170)

[abu njoroge]

What do you personally believe about what happens when you die? Is this different from the belief of your church or faith?

From a human point of view, God seems petty because It allows suffering. You do not have to believe me , however I can say there is no place in existence outside of the Kingdom of God. The reason I can say this is partlly experience and second the Knowledge of an omnipresent God negates the idea of anything being outside of God in the spiritual sense. The story of the garden of eden is a clue to our own existense and origin,but not the final answer. To answer your question , you are soul, as soul you always manifest yourself somewhere whithin the Kingdom of God. In other words we are eternal. I personally choose to spend as little time in hell or purgatory as possible, but that is just me. We have free will thus we are all seekers of truth in our own right. Baraka Bashad your friend Abu Njoroge.

[NormATive]

In other words, you are saying that you are right and I am wrong about whether there can be an "I'm right - you're wrong" answer in theology. Your position appears to be self-defeating.

You didn't read all of my post. I said:

I think the nature of theology, since it is a human attempt to describe things unseen, is such that there is no wrong answer.

So, no I don't think you are wrong. There is no right or wrong answer to a theology question. It is whatever you believe to be true.

If you wish to believe that your view on scripture is correct to the exclusion of all others, then that is what you believe. Nothing I say is going to persuade you otherwise.

I just hope you don't TRULY believe that to the point of doing something destructive in the name of your belief.

NORM

[NormATive]

From a human point of view, God seems petty because It allows suffering.

The opinion that G-d tortures unbelievers for all of eternity is, thankfully, one that will gradually be purged from the Christian discourse moving forward. Already, I see the "evangelical movement" of the 80s and 90s declining.

The story of the garden of eden is a clue to our own existense and origin,but not the final answer.

I agree. It is quite informative of how primitive societies began to emerge from the realm of animals.

To answer your question , you are soul, as soul you always manifest yourself somewhere whithin the Kingdom of God. In other words we are eternal. I personally choose to spend as little time in hell or purgatory as possible, but that is just me. We have free will thus we are all seekers of truth in our own right. Baraka Bashad your friend Abu Njoroge.

I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Could you elaborate on this a bit?

NORM

[harlan]

If you wish to believe that your view on scripture is correct to the exclusion of all others, then that is what you believe. Nothing I say is going to persuade you otherwise.

I agree with you Norm. It's always interesting to hear the views of others as long as they're respectful of the rights of others to think for themselves. We can sometimes learn something, or get a better understanding of why we don't believe something. I think that this mutual respectfulness is part of being civilized. This is a new way of thinking about religion or the rights of individuals which has been rare in history, at least in the Christian world. The ancient Mongols and Persians did practice a more tolerant attitude towards religion.

Harlan

[RBerman]

So, no I don't think you are wrong. There is no right or wrong answer to a theology question. It is whatever you believe to be true.

"There is no right or wrong in theology" is a universal truth claim, Norm. Truth claims are either correct, incorrect, or defective. For instance, "This statement is false" is a defective and thus factually indeterminate statement due to its negative recursion. Your truth claim is a variant on this statement since it admits its own falsity: denying the validity of theological truth claims by making a theological truth-claim. Your statement has no meaning since it self-defeats. It's an ancient word game (Paul even quotes Epiminedes' version in the Bible.) that bears no relation to any subjective or objective reality.

If you wish to believe that your view on scripture is correct to the exclusion of all others, then that is what you believe. Nothing I say is going to persuade you otherwise.

That street runs both ways. Nothing I say is going to persuade you that I am right. True?