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Thread: Strange Fire... Kinda helpful

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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Strange Fire... Kinda helpful

    Well, as many of you know I am an orthodox Pentecostal, and as we all know there are unorthodox Pentecostals. [Prepare for a story] Tonight two young Pentecostal men attended a Young Adults meeting at my A/G church and I partook in a conversation with them about salvation and Baptism of the Holy Spirit and we were in agreement. Then it came up that some scholars consider the second half of Mark 16 to have been added later, and I defended that position, and they came away agreeing with me that is at least possible that it was added later. We eventually shared our testimonies and we were all edified.

    We began talking about local congregations and one of them mentioned how he thought Rick Warren was charismatic and I responded that he was Southern Baptist. We then went to John MacArthur naming us heretics, I mentioned that there is some credibility to that claim because of Oneness Pentecostals, Name it Claim its, and Word of Faithers. They were surprised by my rejection of them and asked me why I agreed that they were heretics. I successfully explained myself and they said they'd likely arrive to the same prayer meeting next week.

    So, thank you TWeb for being so informative, and inciting my curiosity, on the topic of orthodoxy and heresy. You've helped equip me and point me to ministries for apologetics and it may have made the difference here.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Ummmm... being "charismatic" AND "Southern Baptist" is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    True, there are those of a more "Bapticostal" persuasion but as I understand it the Southern Baptist organization is officially opposed for example speaking in tongues and has expelled at least one church for its charismatic expressions. Admittedly, I am not from an area with a strong Baptist influence, but for example, a deacon at my church is thought to be unsaved by his Southern Baptist mother from Arkansas.

    In any case they understood my meaning immediately when I mentioned Saddleback's affiliation, so there must at least be a perception that Southern Baptists are cessationist by those on the "charismatic" side of the discussion. No insult was meant to Pastor Rick Warren, Southern Baptists, or John MacArthur, two respected men and a respected institution.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    True, there are those of a more "Bapticostal" persuasion but as I understand it the Southern Baptist organization is officially opposed for example speaking in tongues and has expelled at least one church for its charismatic expressions.
    First, please take NOTHING here as combative, OK? Not saying you have been, but this is interesting to me, and I'd like to discuss this.

    I've been a Southern Baptist for over 50 years, and I'm not aware of this. I've even served in denominational offices.

    Admittedly, I am not from an area with a strong Baptist influence, but for example, a deacon at my church is thought to be unsaved by his Southern Baptist mother from Arkansas.
    Perhaps she knows something about him that your church does not know?

    In any case they understood my meaning immediately when I mentioned Saddleback's affiliation, so there must at least be a perception that Southern Baptists are cessationist by those on the "charismatic" side of the discussion. No insult was meant to Pastor Rick Warren, Southern Baptists, or John MacArthur, two respected men and a respected institution.
    One of the key "Baptist Distinctives" of Southern Baptist life is "the priesthood of the believer". Add to that the fact that each Southern Baptist Church is autonomous, and does not take "marching orders" from Nashville, I'm just a bit skeptical. While we "officially" don't have a "creed", you might as well call our "Baptist Faith & Message" a creed, for it spells out what we believe, and can be found here.

    I know there was quite a bit of "friction" over tongues in the late 60's, early 70's, but I don't know of any "official position" of the Southern Baptist Convention over it.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Professor Catholicity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    First, please take NOTHING here as combative, OK? Not saying you have been, but this is interesting to me, and I'd like to discuss this.

    I've been a Southern Baptist for over 50 years, and I'm not aware of this. I've even served in denominational offices.



    Perhaps she knows something about him that your church does not know?



    One of the key "Baptist Distinctives" of Southern Baptist life is "the priesthood of the believer". Add to that the fact that each Southern Baptist Church is autonomous, and does not take "marching orders" from Nashville, I'm just a bit skeptical. While we "officially" don't have a "creed", you might as well call our "Baptist Faith & Message" a creed, for it spells out what we believe, and can be found here.

    I know there was quite a bit of "friction" over tongues in the late 60's, early 70's, but I don't know of any "official position" of the Southern Baptist Convention over it.
    I'm not aware of any official position in the southern baptist church, I am aware of extremist positions. The exist and the probably stick out as a majority rather than not. IF one looks at the American Baptist Church, one can find some that are "rogue" congregations and openly allow sin in the congregation, but the official posiition of the church is that its not permissable. However it may be that when we do encounter the extremism, it provokes an image that creates prejudice.
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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    First, please take NOTHING here as combative, OK? Not saying you have been, but this is interesting to me, and I'd like to discuss this.

    I've been a Southern Baptist for over 50 years, and I'm not aware of this. I've even served in denominational offices.
    I did a little more poking around and found that the specific story I had in mind was from a local association that expelled a church for their "charismatic worship," I do not know about your church government, but I readily acknowledge that "charismatic worship" is not equivalent to charismatic practices.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Perhaps she knows something about him that your church does not know?
    Possible, but I find it VERY doubtful, he and his wife are well respected and do very much good. The deacon told me that the explicit reason she regards him as unsaved is that he began speaking in tongues. (And he is the one who told me that story)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I know there was quite a bit of "friction" over tongues in the late 60's, early 70's, but I don't know of any "official position" of the Southern Baptist Convention over it.
    When I did fact checking I found this http://www.baptistpress.com/bpnews.asp?ID=23882 which is again not strictly speaking from the SBC.

    I concede sir that I had overstated the point and that I am mistaken. There is an association of cessationism with Calvinists, and it is a stereotype that Baptists are Calvinist, I did not realize that the SBC are Arminian; I apologize again for being wrong. Humility is something I need to be reminded of, I do not know everything, only our Lord does.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    I concede sir that I had overstated the point and that I am mistaken.
    No problem whatsoever! I just get a little curious when somebody makes a claim that the Southern Baptist Convention did "whatever".... we are a "bottom up" organization, with the local Church being autonomous. There is a wide range of polity within the Convention, and local associations, or local congregations may have positions or opinions that are not reflective of the SBC over all.

    On a side note, I grew up in a fundamental independent Baptist Church, and our Pastor always talked about what a bunch of liberals the Southern Baptists were. When I went through my teenage rebellion, I decided that the SBC sounded just right for me, so I began visiting a local SBC Church, expecting to find some of them thar liberals.

    It just so happens that the Pastor was an honest-to-goodness Bible believing, Bible preaching, Jesus following soul-winning strait shooting disciple maker. And he preached Jesus, and didn't have time to badmouth other denominations!
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Funny story, Cow Poke, but you have taught me some liberal Baptist positions, eg, regarding freedom of conscience and lack of a formal creed. You, you, ... , liberal, you.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Funny story, but you have taught me some liberal Baptist positions, eg, regarding freedom of conscience and lack of a formal creed. You, you, ... , liberal, you.
    Well, yeah, that creed thing...... The Baptist Faith & Message which spells out what we believe just like a creed, but we're not a "creedal people", so we can't call it a creed....

    And I'm not a very good example of a Southern Baptist.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Personally, it has been a good experience for me being acquainted with CP and some of the other Southern Baptists here on TWeb. My main impression of the denomination had honestly been fairly negative beforehand because I have a family member who is one who expresses strong racial views that she says she learned in church, so it is always good to have a broader, more fair representation.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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