Question for the Hebrew speakers

[Vivian]

Hi Sinaiticism!

I have learned, rather painfully, that we must be pliable. If we remain rigid, then the Holy Spirit cannot work in us and through us.

We do have to be careful in our seeking, because something that may be right for us in our journey yesterday, may not be right for us in our journey today. This is what happened to Israel. They became rigid in their understanding and then were not able to detect the movement of Spirit. I speak this warning for those who might hear from experience.

Sure and how are you today?

I went back to sleep after I getting my daughter off to school. I am a widow of a year and a half, and sometimes I am pulled at both ends taking care of my children, and need some extra sleep!

Today, I am rested and doing quite well. My dreams took me into deep parts of myself, where I am actually prayer and doing ritual to God - my tradition has many names for God, depending on the focus of our prayer - El, Yah, El Elyon, Shaddai El Chai, Yahweh, Elohim, Yeshua Messiah, etc. We focus on the attribute of the Name we wish to praise or worship or call upon.

How are you today?

O.k.

First I respect your understanding and like your sweet way of looking at it.

Now as to my understanding and teaching on the subject, The silver cord is representative of our spinal cord as it would be loosed in our old age losing some, if not all, feelings or gaining pains through our central nervous system. The gold bowl being our brain and speaking of things that occur with old age yet more. The pitcher being broken at the fountain relates to our veins and arteries and the wheel being broken at the cistern being the heart, respectively. These are all things relating to getting old and not enjoying anymore the days we have left before we die. As is this whole of the chapter 12 here as it is explaining why when would one think that all is vanity and why we live our dreadful lives for no good reason. People ask all the time, “what’s the meaning of life?” There is even a thread here that ask the very same thing which I quoted the end of this chapter as to the answer. That is the conclusion of the whole matter that we love and obey Yah. For nothing else matters. It is the only reason we were created.

Indeed. I often quote this conclusion myself! I though have found that we were created for way more than simply to love and obey Yah. Such just comes naturally for children of Yah (which my tradition teaches is expressed in the name Elohim - the male one (El) becoming a female many).

It is absolutely amazing what we were created for. Wow. And we as a collective as a land and a people are at a crucial point in our creation. This is why obedience is so very important. This determines whom we are serving.

Now, on to the “spirit”. The dust that returned to dust and what returned to Elohim is just that which He gave to Adam when he was formed. Let’s go see………..

Gen 2:7 YAH Elohim formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So now we have Elohim forming man from the dust and He also put a breath of life which is understood to be the “ruach” in Hebrew which is wind, or air, as is what we breath in and out every day of our lives until we die. let’s look further…………….

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

We all have the same breath or ruach/wind/air. Everything that was so made to breath does so with the same air as everything else. When the first animal was made it was made to breath the air as was man. That same breath has been handed down from one person to the next and stays with them until they expire and gives it back out into the open air. It is not, as to my understanding, anything other than just that. Air. We also see, within that you quoted, dust returning to dust in Ecc 12:7.

Ah. Interesting thinking. Your tradition has no experientially knowledge of the Holy Breath - Ruach Ha Kodesh - behind the physical then?

As Jesus said, the Ruach is not the 'wind' but is like the wind...

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

As for death, we have here in the very same book what we have to look forward to and what we should do until such times occurs…………

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:7 Go your way--eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for Elohim has already accepted your works.
Ecc 9:8 Let your garments be always white, and don't let your head lack oil.
Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your life of vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity: for that is your portion in life, and in your labor in which you labor under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also doesn't know his time. As the fish that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare, even so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly on them.

This is my understanding as it is written in the bible and how I read it through the experiences I have acquired by the teachings of my Moreyah/Teacher.

Indeed we should be true to the highest that we know, and if our knowing brings us to this highest, this is what we should obey, until the Ruach Ha Kodesh brings us into a greater knowing. Greater knowings do not discount lesser knowings, but ha! - this brings to mind one of the differences between the Old and New Covenants, as I understand them! In the Old Covenant a greater knowing would not come until we had mastered the lesser knowing. But with the New Covenant, we are carried forward faster, Spirit not waiting until we have perfected ourselves at one point in life. But many remain stuck in the Old Covenant, whether they claim to believe in Yeshua or not, for they do not come to him to receive Grace and cleansing - and so they remain in the Law - suffering, either trying on their own to perfect themselves, or remaining in misery and suffering as they are constantly under the bindings of the Law. FOr as Yeshua said, the Law remains until all has been accomplished! We are the ones to choose whether we remain bound to the Law or if we allow Grace into our lives.

This is where the Ruach has carried my understanding, at least!

Hope all is well and I hope I have helped you to more understand my understandings and belief.

Shalom

I hope and pray all is well with you. Thank you likewise for sharing.

Shalom!

Viv

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

I would like to attempt to give a perspective as to my understanding if I may……….

For what difference would it have made if Elohim had of just left Esau to be the progenitor of Yisrael? For what purpose was Ya’acov chosen? Not that I have a problem with the choice or the reason or the how, but just would like to know why? He does nothing without purpose and I believe it was to show that He in fact knows the nature of man and so proves to us that He does. By doing so He also shows his authority over us by using some of us to His own glory.

Take a journey with me now as we delve into the reasoning of man and why we have the innate nature instilled within us to always commit sin.

The short, sweet, straight to the point answer to this question is so plainly simplistic that many will say that it cannot be. That, my friends, is called “freedom of choice”. We all have been given this freedom to choose whatever we so desire as to whatever we so choose within our life cycle. No one is made any different than another as to how we are formed within our mother’s womb. We are all so formed from the blood and the flesh as are every other man and woman on the face of this planet. And we all have the same freedom of choice granted to us from Elohim. Esau is no different. He also was formed as all other men and was born of a man and woman as was us all, with the exception of Adam and Haw’wah.

Did Esau still have the freedom of choice to make his own decisions? If so then what if he chose not to sell his birthright to Ya’acov? Would that have made a difference? What of the roles that were played out by the others? This is Yitzhaks household. He plays a very large role in all that takes place for he is the head of the house and responsible for its physical, as well as spiritual, well being. He himself showed favoritism toward Esau. I would think that would instill some hostility within the mind of Ya’acov as while growing up not ever really being able to obtain that level of assurance and acceptance from his own dad. Seeing his brother always receiving his dad’s adulations and love, I see clearer now as to how such a situation would change a person and raise them up with some sort of animosity for his own brother. I believe this is how when Esau came to him, at the point of death, and asked him to give him some food, that Ya’acov used this situation to ask for him to sell his birthright for the food. What type of loving brother would it be to ask for anything in return for their welfare? Maybe Ya’acov was just extending some grace to his brother to allow him to live. At the same time, he retains that which he would have obtained if he had just allowed him to die. There had to be some animosity between them. I also see where Rebekah is also not innocent for her role in all this. She was the one that heard the Malach state to hear that the elder will serve the younger and so had this in here mind the whole time. She is the one that made the food and coerced Ya’acov into putting on the skins of goats to deceive Yitzhak in his blindness of old age to receive his blessing as first born.

I see now why the Malach so gave the prophecy unto Rebekah as to who would be chosen to carry own the covenant. Not that Esau was made any different than any other man that has so been born. I see Esau being born with the same flesh and blood as us all and with the same freedom of choice. But, that said, Yah’s word will not return unto him void. The Malachem are in place to see that such a thing does not occur and works diligently to that effect. Knowing all the nature of man, and of woman, they set things in place. Knowing that a woman is of the nature of emotions, they dropped a little seed on Rebekah. They tell her a prophecy. They say unto her that not only are you going to give birth, but you are also going to have twins. And further, the eldest of the two will serve the younger. She at this point already is going to have the inclination to love the younger more because she feels that he is more favored by Elohim. I see she would be more nurturing and protective of Ya’acov and be as they say, keeping him more under her skirt tails, so to speak. Being more of a mommy’s boy, but he is also in need of his daddy’s acceptance and adulation. He probably wasn’t allowed too far out of Rebekah’s sight at a young age where Esau was more outgoing and adventurous. I see where this played a part as to why Yitzhak loved Esau more as the boy had more of the traits about him that Yitzhak was more taken with other than the plain and simple traits of Ya’acov.

All this mess because of the simple and corruptible nature of mankind and Yah showed us that he does know our hearts as He did here by just speaking some words into the ear of a woman. Wasn’t it also so with eve? She was told that she, if she so ate of the tree of knowledge, could be somehow better. She jumped at the chance and dragged her husband down with her. Adam had a choice but did not choose that which was the will of Elohim, but he ran after the will of his woman. This isn’t to bash women at all because man is just as simple and sinful. It only goes to show how our nature gets in the way of our obedience to the will of Yah and also our own salvation. Hence what was so stated by Sha’ul………

1Co 7:32 But I desire to have you to be free from cares. He who is unmarried is concerned for the things of Yah, how he may please Yah;
1Co 7:33 but he who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife.
1Co 7:34 There is also a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of Yah, that she may be set-apart both in body and in mind. But she who is married cares about the things of the world--how she may please her husband.

In all this we see that all involved had a choice. Rebekah could have decided to love both the same and not showed any favoritism between them. Ya’acov being the head of his household had a duty to make sure that such things not occur but he, in fact fell right into the same fallacy and showed his favoritism. Ya’acov could have admonished himself as to his feelings for his own flesh and blood brother and given him help in his time of need, without asking a thing in return. Esau could have respected his position as the elder brother and been more loving toward his sibling. This could have offset the conflicts of emotions from the actions of their parent’s decisions, which had also affected the family unit.

Yah has so stated that He has no pleasure in seeing any man die the eternal death. He also stated that he hates those who hate him. This is where Esau puts himself into that same category because of the choices that he made which was in adversity to Elohim. Just because there was a prophecy that Esau would become the servant of his younger brother, doesn’t mean that he didn’t have the freedom of choice to choose the better path because of the situations and turmoil so set before him. If Esau had of made the correct choices, could it then be said that Elohim hates Esau? Would Elohim hate us for obeying his commands? I think not, but because He knows our nature and that He already knows from past experiences with man as so written here………….

Gen 6:5 YAH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

It’s almost like He knew that He would end up hating Esau because of what He knew he would do before Esau even had a chance to do anything. From before he had even left the womb Elohim already knew what nature Esau possessed. How? Because Rebekah went to inquire as to why the two were so struggling within her. Elohim saw what was going on between the two while still in her womb and made his choice then as to who was going to be the stronger. Remember that Ya’acov had a hold of the heel of Esau when they were being born. It is of my own opinion that this relates to the time that he wouldn’t let go of that one that in turn changed his name. Ya’acov wasn’t finished yet as he wouldn’t let him go until he had blessed him. He wasn’t giving up then either when he had a hold on the heel of his brother.

It is said that no one is strong enough to withstand torture to where they not give up the secrets that they so hold. Sure for a while maybe they are strong enough to hold on but eventually we all crack, or die. Yet those that hang on to the end and die without giving up is held to a higher standard as is also written of those who hold fast or endures to the end with Yah. They too will be rewarded. And there are those who receive no reward. They break down and give up because of the anguish of the body and mind. They just simply want some sort of release so they choose to give in to their own minds and their own feelings. They relinquish themselves over to that which is in direct adversity to that of the will of Yah. They give in to their captive’s techniques of torture as we give into the techniques of Helel’s minions which lay traps for our thoughts and feelings. Man for the most part gives up and turns away from Yah. That is his nature. He is more suited to turn to himself and his own wants and wishes. All it takes is a little adversity as it was so prophesied by one who also knows us so very, very well…………..

Job 1:11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face."

[RBerman]

God is always the potter in all references, yes?

Depends on what you mean by "all references." Romans 9 appears to be drawing on the two Isaiah passages, and in all three of those, there is a potter, namely God. But there is no potter character in 2 Timothy. It's not using a "potter vs clay" metaphor at all. It's more a "don't use dirty dishes" metaphor for which it would be a mistake to tie into the other three texts thematically.

[Vivian]

Depends on what you mean by "all references." Romans 9 appears to be drawing on the two Isaiah passages, and in all three of those, there is a potter, namely God. But there is no potter character in 2 Timothy. It's not using a "potter vs clay" metaphor at all. It's more a "don't use dirty dishes" metaphor for which it would be a mistake to tie into the other three texts thematically.

Hi RBerman!

There is great mystery in this analogy of the potter and the clay, and we could even say at some level don't use the dirty dishes! fits all references. Certainly an advanced spiritual teacher would not use one analogy to mean one thing in one context and another in another context. He would though in his teachings, reveal deeper and deeper analogies, all though within the same context - revealing the multidimensionality of God's infinite creation, with each deepening analogy.

Within humanity as a collective and within humanity as evolving towards Sonship, these dirty dishes exist - it is not our fault that these dirty dishes are there, but we are called to recognize them and to not use them!

This very much ties into Paul's self revelation of Romans 7, where he sees the dirty dishes, the nature called Esau, within himself - the lawbreaker, as well as seeing the clean dishes, the law keeper, the nature called Jacob, within as well. It is not our fault that these dirty dishes are there. Nor ought we blame God! Fault and blame fall under the dominion of the father of lies. But we are responsible for recognizing and choosing to follow the Jacob within us. We are called to come to the Light so our Esau can be revealed (John 3) - as a fruition of our belief. And in its revelation in the Light, we will be cleansed, making it easier for us to obey our godly nature.

But as Paul says, who will ultimately free us from these dirty dishes? Our Adonai, Yeshua Messiah. This is a great mystery, one which calls simply for our obedience.


Shalom!

Viv

[RBerman]

I don't know why you say there's "great mystery" surrounding the potter/clay analogy. The text seems very straightforward. God, as Creator, makes people for various purposes, including the purpose of being destroyed. And people are not qualified to judge God's justice in this or any other matter.

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Hi Sinaiticism!

Shabbat Shalom!

I have learned, rather painfully, that we must be pliable. If we remain rigid, then the Holy Spirit cannot work in us and through us.

We do have to be careful in our seeking, because something that may be right for us in our journey yesterday, may not be right for us in our journey today. This is what happened to Israel. They became rigid in their understanding and then were not able to detect the movement of Spirit. I speak this warning for those who might hear from experience.

Though I disagree about Yisrael for they knew what was expected of them but they chose to disobey as they had done time and time again. But yes we do need to be careful. I used to be so rigid in my beliefs as a southern baptist thinking the whole time we were the only ones to have it right and then realized that I was wrong. I moved around so many places and had such a time finding my home and praise Yah He finally blessed me with the way to where I now reside. I have always found fault with the doctrine of every place I went until I found Yah. So yes, I understand to well what you are speaking of. I was beaten into being pliable, as you say, until I was made into a man that was susceptible unto the true word of Yah. But once there I found that I needed to hold fast unto that which was given me unto the end……….

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of the Anointed, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

I went back to sleep after I getting my daughter off to school. I am a widow of a year and a half, and sometimes I am pulled at both ends taking care of my children, and need some extra sleep!

Today, I am rested and doing quite well. My dreams took me into deep parts of myself, where I am actually prayer and doing ritual to God - my tradition has many names for God, depending on the focus of our prayer - El, Yah, El Elyon, Shaddai El Chai, Yahweh, Elohim, Yeshua Messiah, etc. We focus on the attribute of the Name we wish to praise or worship or call upon.

How are you today?

I know all about what you are going through but Praise Yah I have been very blessed with the isha that I now have. We both serve Yah as one as my headship over my household will no longer allow to be unevenly yoked.

I am glad to hear that you are rested as I intend to get mine as I replenish myself this Shabbat. Oh and again Shabbat Shalom!

Indeed. I often quote this conclusion myself! I though have found that we were created for way more than simply to love and obey Yah. Such just comes naturally for children of Yah (which my tradition teaches is expressed in the name Elohim - the male one (El) becoming a female many).

I see.

What do you call your traditions as I see you have only christian (other) by your name?

It is absolutely amazing what we were created for. Wow. And we as a collective as a land and a people are at a crucial point in our creation. This is why obedience is so very important. This determines whom we are serving.

Yes loving our Father so much as to obey His word is all that we believe that we are here for. His word is spirit and it changes us into that which will be acceptable to obtain eternal life.

Ah. Interesting thinking. Your tradition has no experientially knowledge of the Holy Breath - Ruach Ha Kodesh - behind the physical then?

As Jesus said, the Ruach is not the 'wind' but is like the wind...

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

It is of my understanding that the Ruach Ha Chodesh is sort of an analogy of the breath/word of Yah. He speaks the Malachem into being where He wills. We have His Holy Malachem with us always as they observe us and guide us when it is needed. For they do nothing for no reason as they will not allow the word of Yah to be in vain. It is so written that His word is Spirit and we who believe have this Spirit working within us as it transforms us. It is also of my understanding that as far as any spirit, or what have you, coming over us as to make us want to do back flips out of windows or anything……..No. We rather feel the overwhelming sensation of comfort from the Spirit of His word working within us, and guiding us, as it transforms us into that which is wholly acceptable unto Elohim.

Indeed we should be true to the highest that we know, and if our knowing brings us to this highest, this is what we should obey, until the Ruach Ha Kodesh brings us into a greater knowing. Greater knowings do not discount lesser knowings, but ha! - this brings to mind one of the differences between the Old and New Covenants, as I understand them! In the Old Covenant a greater knowing would not come until we had mastered the lesser knowing. But with the New Covenant, we are carried forward faster, Spirit not waiting until we have perfected ourselves at one point in life. But many remain stuck in the Old Covenant, whether they claim to believe in Yeshua or not, for they do not come to him to receive Grace and cleansing - and so they remain in the Law - suffering, either trying on their own to perfect themselves, or remaining in misery and suffering as they are constantly under the bindings of the Law. FOr as Yeshua said, the Law remains until all has been accomplished! We are the ones to choose whether we remain bound to the Law or if we allow Grace into our lives.

This is where the Ruach has carried my understanding, at least!

Yes we should do what makes us happy as long as we do so while pleasing Yah. The law is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Yah. We are not of the understanding that we are not bound by Him but rather the opposite. We are bound to our Father by love and out of this love we obey His will. We do so by observing His Torah as it is what He commanded us to do forever and ever. We are under the understanding that Yah changes not and so we will follow His instructions until the end. We understand that he who perseveres until the end will receive a just reward……….

Mat 10:22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And how shall we endure?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing you have purified yourselves in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of Elohim, which lives and remains forever.
1Pe 1:24 For, "All flesh is like grass, and all of man's glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls;
1Pe 1:25 But YAH's word endures forever." This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

We shall endure by our faith in Yah for out of our obedience to His word are our works of His Spirit. We shall show love to one another that is of the truth with us and know that we are accounted for of all things past by our big brother and King which is Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed. For Yah’s word cannot fail and as it endures forever and ever.

I hope and pray all is well with you. Thank you likewise for sharing.

Not a problem as I do continue to thank you for what you share of your understandings as well.

Shalom!

Viv

Shabbat Shalom

[Vivian]

Shabbat Shalom!

Shabbat Shalom (although Shabbat for me begins at sunset this evening.)

Though I disagree about Yisrael for they knew what was expected of them but they chose to disobey as they had done time and time again.

I do see from below that you do accept Hebrews, yes?

In Hebrews it is said that Israel did not enter into His Rest (which is redemption - becoming free, no longer being a doer in this world, but at rest - a Temple for God) because of a lack of faith...

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

It is lack of faith that keeps us in disobedience! It is not a matter of choice for obedience, thus, but of belief. If we do not belief, if our faith is not sufficient, we will not be cleansed and empowered to obey.

But yes we do need to be careful. I used to be so rigid in my beliefs as a southern baptist thinking the whole time we were the only ones to have it right and then realized that I was wrong. I moved around so many places and had such a time finding my home and praise Yah He finally blessed me with the way to where I now reside. I have always found fault with the doctrine of every place I went until I found Yah. So yes, I understand to well what you are speaking of. I was beaten into being pliable, as you say, until I was made into a man that was susceptible unto the true word of Yah. But once there I found that I needed to hold fast unto that which was given me unto the end……….

Even when our limited human intellect is satisfied, we have to still remain pliable! For there is always more, always something higher for Yah to reveal to us, through his Word - written and unwritten.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of the Anointed, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:



“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


Yes, it takes an inner personal relationship to have the faith necessary to enter into His rest. And to hear His voice, we must remain pliable. This means until we are redeemed, we have not yet found the whole truth. And so we cannot harden our hearts restricting our ability to hear directly from Him - no matter what we have found outside of our self. We become hard, when we reject the inner for something outside of us - an understanding that is outside of us, which is then a tradition of men.

I know all about what you are going through but Praise Yah I have been very blessed with the isha that I now have. We both serve Yah as one as my headship over my household will no longer allow to be unevenly yoked.

I am glad to hear that you are rested as I intend to get mine as I replenish myself this Shabbat. Oh and again Shabbat Shalom!



I see.

What do you call your traditions as I see you have only christian (other) by your name?

True Apostolic Succession. The tradition that I follow is one of several that have their origins in the original Apostles, but remain hidden mostly from the public. Even if one saw it, they would not recognize it unless they had been prepared by Yah to See before hand.

And this preparation is not always fun, for we have to freed from the shadows that imprison our hearts.

Yes loving our Father so much as to obey His word is all that we believe that we are here for. His word is spirit and it changes us into that which will be acceptable to obtain eternal life.

Yes...it is indeed love, worship, faith, belief that allows us to be remade so that we can walk in obedience. I offer though that the obedience we must walk in is not the obedience taught by others outside of us, but what Christ teaches us directly ourselves. In a personal relationship. Or an inner relationship between our soul and Yah.

It is of my understanding that the Ruach Ha Chodesh is sort of an analogy of the breath/word of Yah. He speaks the Malachem into being where He wills. We have His Holy Malachem with us always as they observe us and guide us when it is needed. For they do nothing for no reason as they will not allow the word of Yah to be in vain. It is so written that His word is Spirit and we who believe have this Spirit working within us as it transforms us.

His Word is indeed Spirit. Those who have experienced the Spirit of God will write of their experiences, which them becomes holy scripture or the written Word. But ultimately we each must be in contact directly with the Word that is Spirit.

It is also of my understanding that as far as any spirit, or what have you, coming over us as to make us want to do back flips out of windows or anything……..No. We rather feel the overwhelming sensation of comfort from the Spirit of His word working within us, and guiding us, as it transforms us into that which is wholly acceptable unto Elohim.

I agree that 'excitement' or anything enacted through excitement is of the ego or the Nefesh Bahamit. Certainly the Nefesh Bahamit can react to being touched by the Spirit with back flips! But this means that the ego has distorted what has been revealed or given by the touch for its own selfish purposes. We are called to overcome the ego or the Nefesh Bahamit, so that when we are touched, we will no longer distort. Certainly though our Nefesh Elokit, or godly self (Romans 7) can react with joy, with humor, especially with love, with such a touch, but it takes the process, walking in obedience, to be able to discern the difference in ourselves, as Paul did in Romans 7.

Yes we should do what makes us happy as long as we do so while pleasing Yah. The law is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Yah. We are not of the understanding that we are not bound by Him but rather the opposite. We are bound to our Father by love and out of this love we obey His will. We do so by observing His Torah as it is what He commanded us to do forever and ever. We are under the understanding that Yah changes not and so we will follow His instructions until the end. We understand that he who perseveres until the end will receive a just reward……….

Our reward in this world is found in the doing. We love, we are rewarded with love, yes?

As we overcome, we will find that our surface or ego desires are merely distortions of our deep true desires. And as we are cleansed and healed, these distortions will be integrated and our true desires will begin to manifest in our thought, word, and deed, all in accordance to the will of God.

Mat 10:22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And how shall we endure?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing you have purified yourselves in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of Elohim, which lives and remains forever.
1Pe 1:24 For, "All flesh is like grass, and all of man's glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls;
1Pe 1:25 But YAH's word endures forever." This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

We shall endure by our faith in Yah for out of our obedience to His word are our works of His Spirit. We shall show love to one another that is of the truth with us and know that we are accounted for of all things past by our big brother and King which is Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed. For Yah’s word cannot fail and as it endures forever and ever.

Yes, indeed it is our faith. Which results in obedience, which results in our resting, or stopping being the doer, which then frees us from all sin, allowing us to become as intended, a holy temple for Christ, Christ then being the doer within us. We resting in joy and peace.

Shalom!


Viv

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Being that this conversation is not in conjunction with this thread I will only reply in private in the future as to this conversation.

My apologies OC.

Shabbat Shalom (although Shabbat for me begins at sunset this evening.)

I understand. It started for at dark on the east coast.

I do see from below that you do accept Hebrews, yes?

As an epistle only and not a divine work.

In Hebrews it is said that Israel did not enter into His Rest (which is redemption - becoming free, no longer being a doer in this world, but at rest - a Temple for God) because of a lack of faith...

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

It is lack of faith that keeps us in disobedience! It is not a matter of choice for obedience, thus, but of belief. If we do not belief, if our faith is not sufficient, we will not be cleansed and empowered to obey.

Oh so you are saying that they did not choose to believe? They had already accepted the covenant as it so stated that there be no other Elohim before them and not to make any graven images to bow down before them but they chose not to listen and believe that what they accepted and disobeyed. Even though they saw all the wonders of the pillar of smoke and fire and the parting of the sea and all that they had witnessed. They still chose to disobey. Still filled with their own thoughts and feelings as they still are today.

Even when our limited human intellect is satisfied, we have to still remain pliable! For there is always more, always something higher for Yah to reveal to us, through his Word - written and unwritten.



14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:



“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


Yes, it takes an inner personal relationship to have the faith necessary to enter into His rest. And to hear His voice, we must remain pliable. This means until we are redeemed, we have not yet found the whole truth. And so we cannot harden our hearts restricting our ability to hear directly from Him - no matter what we have found outside of our self. We become hard, when we reject the inner for something outside of us - an understanding that is outside of us, which is then a tradition of men.

O.k.

True Apostolic Succession. The tradition that I follow is one of several that have their origins in the original Apostles, but remain hidden mostly from the public. Even if one saw it, they would not recognize it unless they had been prepared by Yah to See before hand.

And this preparation is not always fun, for we have to freed from the shadows that imprison our hearts.

O.k.

Yes...it is indeed love, worship, faith, belief that allows us to be remade so that we can walk in obedience. I offer though that the obedience we must walk in is not the obedience taught by others outside of us, but what Christ teaches us directly ourselves. In a personal relationship. Or an inner relationship between our soul and Yah.

O.k.

His Word is indeed Spirit. Those who have experienced the Spirit of God will write of their experiences, which them becomes holy scripture or the written Word. But ultimately we each must be in contact directly with the Word that is Spirit.

O.k.

I agree that 'excitement' or anything enacted through excitement is of the ego or the Nefesh Bahamit. Certainly the Nefesh Bahamit can react to being touched by the Spirit with back flips! But this means that the ego has distorted what has been revealed or given by the touch for its own selfish purposes. We are called to overcome the ego or the Nefesh Bahamit, so that when we are touched, we will no longer distort. Certainly though our Nefesh Elokit, or godly self (Romans 7) can react with joy, with humor, especially with love, with such a touch, but it takes the process, walking in obedience, to be able to discern the difference in ourselves, as Paul did in Romans 7.

O.k.

Our reward in this world is found in the doing. We love, we are rewarded with love, yes?

Yeah right…….

Ecc 9:7 Go your way--eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for Elohim has already accepted your works.
Ecc 9:8 Let your garments be always white, and don't let your head lack oil.
Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your life of vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity: for that is your portion in life, and in your labor in which you labor under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going.

As we overcome, we will find that our surface or ego desires are merely distortions of our deep true desires. And as we are cleansed and healed, these distortions will be integrated and our true desires will begin to manifest in our thought, word, and deed, all in accordance to the will of God.

O.k.

Yes, indeed it is our faith. Which results in obedience, which results in our resting, or stopping being the doer, which then frees us from all sin, allowing us to become as intended, a holy temple for Christ, Christ then being the doer within us. We resting in joy and peace.

O.k.

We rather understand all of this to be much, much simpler in as we just keep the patience of the holy ones……..

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahshua."

[LDSTrue]

Shalom my friend.

Shalom back at ya friend!

Sinaiticism, sorry it has taken so long thank you for your thoughtful response and submit my response. Please accept my apology.

Our local electric company came by unannounced and installed a new electric meter while I was working on my computer without warning and blew-out my wireless connection device.

I asked;

Would you agree it is our immortal spirits that bring life to our bodies and not the other way around?

And you responded with;

No.

I submit the following for your consideration;

Scripture Verse:

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Would you agree God saying He will “… put a new spirit within…” provides a clear indication that in fact we do have a spirit within?

Scripture Verse:

Proverbs 16: 32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Would you agree it would be impossible for one to “…ruleth his spirit…” if one does not have one?

Scripture Verse:

Numbers 27:16 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Would you agree that Numbers 27:16 above seems to make a clear and definite distinction between our "spirits" and our "flesh" “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…”

I believe that it is the shared neshmat/breath, as so written in Bereshit/Genesis 1:7, from our mothers that has been handed down since Adam and Chaw’wah/Eve that we obtain life and become a living nephesh/being as is the same also with all living creatures so created by Elohim as so written.

I don’t believe Numbers 27:16 is a reference to “breath” nor can it be construed to mean that God is the God of breath; “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…” though I do agree God has provided the air we breathe.

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 42:5 “Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Please notice God giveth breath AND spirit to them that walk therein. Seeing as God giveth us breath AND spirit does not that provide clear indication that we get BOTH from God “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…”

God “giveth breath” and “spirit to them that walk therein” which would indicate that “breath” is not “spirit” as both are mentioned in Isaiah and a definite distinction is made between them.

Scripture Verse:

Job 32:8, 18;

[8] “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”

[18] For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job states that there is a spirit within man and recognizes the fact that his spirit is constraining him which coincides with Proverbs 16:32 “… ruleth his spirit…”

With regard to spirits in prison;

Aren't there are some references in the Old Testament regarding spirits in prison which would mean they are not still in the grave?

Which verse, or verses, do you refer? Please post so that we can deal with them as to their meaning.

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
…

Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
…

Isaiah 24:22 “And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

If they are sleeping in their graves how are they “gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit…”

How are they sleeping in their graves if they are “shut up in the prison…” Isaiah prophesies that God will visit them as they are “gathered in the pit” and not singular in their own individual graves. How are they gathered and yet still sleeping in their singular graves?

IMO, Isaiah saw and prophesied exactly what Peter revealed to us;

Scripture Verse:

1 Peter 3:18-20

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Isaiah said “after many days shall they be visited” Would you agree many days expired between the flood and Jesus resurrection wherein He went and preached unto the disobedient spirits gathered in prison from the time of Noah.

[Vivian]

Being that this conversation is not in conjunction with this thread I will only reply in private in the future as to this conversation.

My apologies OC.

Greetings Sinaiticism!

I am not sure what the apology to OC is about?

Perhaps you two are having a private discussion in which he expressed a dissatisfaction with the direction the thread was moving in?

I understand. It started for at dark on the east coast.

I highly venerate the Shabbat, which is why I made a comment. But wanted to point out that we celebrate a sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday Shabbat .

As an epistle only and not a divine work.

Oh thank you for this clarification! I was not sure where your tradition stood in regards to the New Testament scripture. We too see some books, or even some sections of books, as coming from a higher level of prophecy, or revelation.

Oh so you are saying that they did not choose to believe? They had already accepted the covenant as it so stated that there be no other Elohim before them and not to make any graven images to bow down before them but they chose not to listen and believe that what they accepted and disobeyed. Even though they saw all the wonders of the pillar of smoke and fire and the parting of the sea and all that they had witnessed. They still chose to disobey. Still filled with their own thoughts and feelings as they still are today.

I agree with our 'monkey minds' being filled with our own thoughts and feelings. As Apostle Paul offers, part of the process of healing and purification is related to our thought life.

And as Yeshua taught - outer obedience is not going to cut it! As long as our inner life is still filth. We have to clean the inside of the cup first. The cleaning of the inside of the cup is what requires our belief.

It is Grace that cleans us on the inside - which includes our thought life. As we put it, the ego is very attached to itself alone, and so all its thoughts are centered on itself as though it were the sun or God. And from this self centered thought or inner life, scripture will be misconstrued (misinterpreted, misunderstood, misapplied) which is why the inside of the cup, through Grace, must be cleaned, first and foremost. And our job is to cooperate with Grace. Cooperation coming through our obedience to the commandments of Elohim.

This process of inner cleaning, which then will lead to true outer righteousness, can only occur if we belief, if we trust, if we have faith in Yeshua Messiah to heal us, to clean us. And, according to such a faith, we will obey him down to our thoughts (Making every thought captive to Christ. - Paul).

The children of Israel did not have faith, hence they did not come to Yah for healing and inner cleansing. Their obedience then was only superficial, on the outside, and thus was not true obedience.

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

O.k.




Yeah right…….

Ecc 9:7 Go your way--eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for Elohim has already accepted your works.
Ecc 9:8 Let your garments be always white, and don't let your head lack oil.
Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your life of vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity: for that is your portion in life, and in your labor in which you labor under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going.

I think you are agreeing that the reward is found in the labor itself?

O.k.

We rather understand all of this to be much, much simpler in as we just keep the patience of the holy ones……..

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahshua."

Yes, keeping the commandments of Elohim is very simple.

What is not simple is having faith.

What is most difficult is believing that Messiah can and will heal us, on the inside.

What is most difficult is believing that Messiah and His Grace can indeed quiet our minds, and heal the dis-peace and fear that causes them to be so active with thoughts centered around self.

Be still and know that I am Yah.


Shalom!


Viv

[Vivian]

Hi LDS True!

If I might offer something for consideration.

Most of humanity functions just above the beasts of the field - this assessment is not meant to be critical but to explain what we are called to do! We all begin at functioning just above the beasts of the field, but are called to over come the beast within, so that we can become true human beings or temples of the Holy Spirit.

In bestial functioning we are not able to see the Spirit within ourselves, nor are we able to see Spirit in others, or even see Spirit working and moving in this world. When we function as beasts all we can see is our selves, for we are the center of our inner world. God becomes then a reflection of ourselves, as does scripture - it becomes likewise a reflection of our bestial-self-centered-nature, for that is all we can see.

Until the Spirit within us is awakened, we then function purely on either pure selfish emotion or self-centered intellect - and at best our belief is founded in a set of doctrines or bestial mental constructs based on beast's perception of the Holy Writings.

Until Spirit is awakened within us, until we are cleansed on the inside, we cannot see the Spirit behind Holy Writings.

So our debating and arguing is useless. Either we see Spirit or we don't - we certainly can't prove or disprove its existence with Holy Writings! At best we can prove or disprove mental constructs about Spirit.

For those of us who cannot perceive the Holy Spirit in us or around us, I suggest reading Romans 7 and praying to Yah for the same inner insight that Paul had. The first step in seeing Spirit is seeing the spiritual conflict within our selves.

This is the beginning of the inner purification or making the inside of the cup clean. This is coming to the Light to have our inner evil revealed - the consequence of trust or faith in the Messiah or Son of God.

Shalom!

Viv

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Shalom back at ya friend!

And shalom again.

Sinaiticism, sorry it has taken so long thank you for your thoughtful response and submit my response. Please accept my apology.

No need my friend. I fully understand the woe’s of life.

I asked;

Would you agree it is our immortal spirits that bring life to our bodies and not the other way around?

And you responded with;

No.

I submit the following for your consideration;

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Would you agree God saying He will “… put a new spirit within…” provides a clear indication that in fact we do have a spirit within?

In this context of “spirit” yes. The context in which this is spoken is of a future time. This is speaking of the time of the Theocratic Kingdom. This is speaking of those that will be translated into that new being. Giving us a new breath. A new breath of life if you will.

Proverbs 16: 32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

This is speaking of the spirit of our continence. It speaks of one’s anger as it is a form of emotion. As it was so said unto……….

Gen 4:6 YAH said to Kayin, "Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen?
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."

Would you agree it would be impossible for one to “…ruleth his spirit…” if one does not have one?

Yes. In the context that if man had not that which is allowed of him of free will to choose and have that innate part of his cognizance called emotions, he would have neither anger or love in which to control.

Numbers 27:16 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

And it is of our understanding that the word “spirit” here is so speaking of that which Yah gave. The breath of life. Though it could be just as arguable as the emotions of man as well as he allows certain test and trials to come on us that would influence ones spirit as in emotions and thoughts.

Would you agree that Numbers 27:16 above seems to make a clear and definite distinction between our "spirits" and our "flesh" “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…”

Yes of course. He is also the El of all spirits period. That said, it is understood by us that He is the giver of all existence and therefore would be El over all.

I don’t believe Numbers 27:16 is a reference to “breath” nor can it be construed to mean that God is the God of breath; “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…” though I do agree God has provided the air we breathe.

O.k.

We rather see, as you say “the One who provided the air we breathe”, as El of all things up to and including the air that we breathe.

Isaiah 42:5 “Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Please notice God giveth breath AND spirit to them that walk therein. Seeing as God giveth us breath AND spirit does not that provide clear indication that we get BOTH from God “…the God of the spirits of all flesh…”

God “giveth breath” and “spirit to them that walk therein” which would indicate that “breath” is not “spirit” as both are mentioned in Isaiah and a definite distinction is made between them.

Of course there are differences between the breath we have and that which the breath allowed when it made man a living being. Our cognizance. Our inner thoughts and feelings. Emotions and the free will to decide by our own thought processes. That is what is meant as spirit in Isa 42:5 as we understand it. He gave us the spirit, or drive, thought, feelings, emotions, and mental capacity to make decisions as to how we would walk there in. It is our brains and mind that is the spirit here within this context as we see it.

Job 32:8, 18;

[8] “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”

[18] For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job states that there is a spirit within man and recognizes the fact that his spirit is constraining him which coincides with Proverbs 16:32 “… ruleth his spirit…”

Yes and true when speaking of our minds. That which constaineth man is his conscience as to our understanding. It is that which makes us who we are.

With regard to spirits in prison;

Aren't there some references in the Old Testament regarding spirits in prison which would mean they are not still in the grave?

Which verse, or verses, do you refer? Please post so that we can deal with them as to their meaning.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

…

Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
…

Isaiah 24:22 “And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

If they are sleeping in their graves how are they “gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit…”

How are they sleeping in their graves if they are “shut up in the prison…” Isaiah prophesies that God will visit them as they are “gathered in the pit” and not singular in their own individual graves. How are they gathered and yet still sleeping in their singular graves?

In our understanding these are not sleeping in the graves. These are those who are prisoners of their own minds. 61:1 is Isaiah speaking of himself having the malach of Yah upon him and guiding him in what to say to free those up that are imprisoned within their own minds as to the true understandings of Yah’s word. 42:7 is speaking of those who Yah call’s in righteousness to open the eye’s of those who are lost and imprisoned within their own minds as to the true understandings of Yah’s word. 24:22 is speaking of when Yahshua returns and how the nations are going to be treated. They are not dead yet. But their understandings are perverted and some need help. Those that have been called in their righteousness are going to open their minds eye so that they can see Yah’s true word and will. The doors of the prison of their minds will be flung open for them to finally see beyond that which kept them closed in and captive.

IMO, Isaiah saw and prophesied exactly what Peter revealed to us;

1 Peter 3:18-20

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Isaiah said “after many days shall they be visited” Would you agree many days expired between the flood and Jesus resurrection wherein He went and preached unto the disobedient spirits gathered in prison from the time of Noah.

First off, it is not of our understanding that Isaiah, or rather “Yashayah” which mean “Yah has saved”, prophesied as to that of 1pe 3:18-20. Though it is of my understanding that it isn’t much different other than it is speaking of Yahshua having a Malach which raised him from the dead just as it was a Malach that gave him the ability to open the blind eyes of those so closed up in the prison of their minds as to the true word of Yah which were still living as was he at that time.

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

No, as I clearly and plainly stated in my post, I apologized to the one that started this thread as to my replies to that which has stirred me from the original direction that he had so established. I feel that it is something that I am finding to be more and more prevalent here on this forum as to when I post my understandings as to the OP, I am forced to answer so many questions about my cultural belief system of Sinaiticism. This I find as rude and disrespectful to the author of the OP. Yes I am guilty of the same thing and am trying to not do this anymore. Hence, the reason why I stated that which I did.

Has your curiosity been so satisfied now Ms. Vivian? If not by all means please do PM me so that I may go deeper into whatever your heart desires which is not of the interest of this OP.

Thank you.

PS. I will reply as to your latest post in PM. Again Thanks.