Question for the Hebrew speakers

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Resistance is futile, OC. You better remind him!

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Resistance is futile, OC. You better remind him!

We need a Borg smilie!

[RBerman]

For me, all of these verses point to the fact that God's curse of Esau was based upon his behavior--(what Esau DID with what he was given.)

I would go so far as to say that ALL of God's blessings, and gifts, as well as all of God's cursings and punishments, are given as results of what we do with what we are given. I reject the notion that God decided who to love and who to hate, who to save and who to condemn before we were even born.

You are free to say what you want, but what you just said is the opposite of what Paul says in Romans 9, which is this:

Romans 9:10-13

Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

This shows that God's election is logically prior to human action. Jacob was chosen and Esau rejected "before the twins...had done anything good or bad." Paul anticipates that this idea will violate the innate sense of justice held by many people. That's why he immediately proceeds onward to pre-empt such a complaint:

Romans 9:18-21

God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This is a great example of why we need the Bible in the first place: our assumptions about "the way things ought to be" are often wrong, because we don't see things the way God does. Be careful about putting the Bible into the position of being wrong when it doesn't say what you think it ought to say.

[Vivian]

Which verse, or verses, do you refer? Please post so that we can deal with them as to their meaning.

Please excuse the interruption, Sinaiticism, but if I might add some verses here, and an experience...

The verses are from Ecclesiastes 12:

6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
8 “ Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,

“ All is vanity.”

This by King Solomon is understood to be saying that there is a cord, 'a silver cord', which holds the spirit to the body. But upon death this cord is loosened and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Certainly this does not say when this spirit was given, but that it originated with God, and then was tied at some point to the body by the silver cord.

The experience or rather experiences have to do with experiencing God. When the hand of God comes upon you, every cell of you physical body, as well as the 'cells' of your soul and spirit are awakened, and from deep within each teeny tiny piece of you, a remembrance rises up, and you call out 'I Know You!' Our spirit, even each cell of our body, already knows God, has been imprinted with memories of God, but certainly in physical incarnation they are 'asleep' and lost in forgetfulness.

This is born of something before our experiences of incarnation in this life.

I also believe that something of the physical is to be transfigured into the everlasting. Not 'made' immortal, for everything that has a beginning must have an end, but made to endure from everlasting to everlasting, which is way longer than the human mind can comprehend! It is this spirit in us though, that originated with God that is and will always be immortal. It just sleeps in fallen matter, stuck in physical life and death until it is awakened and remembers its Creator. Then it's form will undergo the process of transfiguration (1 Corinthians 15), becoming a new body for the now awakened spirit, as we witnessed in the Risen Christ.

Shalom!

Viv

[ברכיה בן ישׂראל]

Please excuse the interruption, Sinaiticism, but if I might add some verses here, and an experience...

Sure and how are you today?

The verses are from Ecclesiastes 12:

6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
8 “ Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,

“ All is vanity.”

This by King Solomon is understood to be saying that there is a cord, 'a silver cord', which holds the spirit to the body. But upon death this cord is loosened and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Certainly this does not say when this spirit was given, but that it originated with God, and then was tied at some point to the body by the silver cord.

The experience or rather experiences have to do with experiencing God. When the hand of God comes upon you, every cell of you physical body, as well as the 'cells' of your soul and spirit are awakened, and from deep within each teeny tiny piece of you, a remembrance rises up, and you call out 'I Know You!' Our spirit, even each cell of our body, already knows God, has been imprinted with memories of God, but certainly in physical incarnation they are 'asleep' and lost in forgetfulness.

This is born of something before our experiences of incarnation in this life.

I also believe that something of the physical is to be transfigured into the everlasting. Not 'made' immortal, for everything that has a beginning must have an end, but made to endure from everlasting to everlasting, which is way longer than the human mind can comprehend! It is this spirit in us though, that originated with God that is and will always be immortal. It just sleeps in fallen matter, stuck in physical life and death until it is awakened and remembers its Creator. Then it's form will undergo the process of transfiguration (1 Corinthians 15), becoming a new body for the now awakened spirit, as we witnessed in the Risen Christ.

Shalom!

Viv

O.k.

First I respect your understanding and like your sweet way of looking at it.

Now as to my understanding and teaching on the subject, The silver cord is representative of our spinal cord as it would be loosed in our old age losing some, if not all, feelings or gaining pains through our central nervous system. The gold bowl being our brain and speaking of things that occur with old age yet more. The pitcher being broken at the fountain relates to our veins and arteries and the wheel being broken at the cistern being the heart, respectively. These are all things relating to getting old and not enjoying anymore the days we have left before we die. As is this whole of the chapter 12 here as it is explaining why when would one think that all is vanity and why we live our dreadful lives for no good reason. People ask all the time, “what’s the meaning of life?” There is even a thread here that ask the very same thing which I quoted the end of this chapter as to the answer. That is the conclusion of the whole matter that we love and obey Yah. For nothing else matters. It is the only reason we were created.

Now, on to the “spirit”. The dust that returned to dust and what returned to Elohim is just that which He gave to Adam when he was formed. Let’s go see………..

Gen 2:7 YAH Elohim formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So now we have Elohim forming man from the dust and He also put a breath of life which is understood to be the “ruach” in Hebrew which is wind, or air, as is what we breath in and out every day of our lives until we die. let’s look further…………….

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

We all have the same breath or ruach/wind/air. Everything that was so made to breath does so with the same air as everything else. When the first animal was made it was made to breath the air as was man. That same breath has been handed down from one person to the next and stays with them until they expire and gives it back out into the open air. It is not, as to my understanding, anything other than just that. Air. We also see, within that you quoted, dust returning to dust in Ecc 12:7.

As for death, we have here in the very same book what we have to look forward to and what we should do until such times occurs…………

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:7 Go your way--eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for Elohim has already accepted your works.
Ecc 9:8 Let your garments be always white, and don't let your head lack oil.
Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your life of vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity: for that is your portion in life, and in your labor in which you labor under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also doesn't know his time. As the fish that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare, even so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly on them.

This is my understanding as it is written in the bible and how I read it through the experiences I have acquired by the teachings of my Moreyah/Teacher.

Hope all is well and I hope I have helped you to more understand my understandings and belief.

Shalom

[OtherCheek]

You are free to say what you want, but what you just said is the opposite of what Paul says in Romans 9, which is this:

Romans 9:10-13

Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

This shows that God's election is logically prior to human action. Jacob was chosen and Esau rejected "before the twins...had done anything good or bad." Paul anticipates that this idea will violate the innate sense of justice held by many people. That's why he immediately proceeds onward to pre-empt such a complaint:

Romans 9:18-21

God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This is a great example of why we need the Bible in the first place: our assumptions about "the way things ought to be" are often wrong, because we don't see things the way God does. Be careful about putting the Bible into the position of being wrong when it doesn't say what you think it ought to say.

I can only tell you that I know that God will save all whom he CAN save. And if a person chooses to rebel, God cannot save that person until he chooses to repent.

Paul did not teach that God created some people for the express purpose to be objects of his hatred. For me, these verses in Romans are only a testimony that God does know us all and knew us all before we received our mortal tabernacles.

I use modern revealed scripture to help me understand passages like this in Romans.

Alma 13:3
And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

D&C 138:56.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

Abraham 3:22-23
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

That's my perspective. I think I have a firm grasp on yours.

Thanks.

[OtherCheek]

Hi OC!

I have a sort of different perspective, if I might offer it here. This one is born from studying Jewish tradition.

While the stories of the Bible do present actual events in the historical past, the reason they are recorded in scripture is not so that we will know about these specific characters from the past, but so that we can know about our selves and about humanity as a collective and the journey that we are taking together. All OT terms - Israel, Jerusalem, etc, all the characters, including Esau, are pointing to a spiritual verity or principle or archetype whose understanding will open insight into creation, humanity, our selves and our journey to God.

And so we can say that these actual Biblical characters were born on earth to play out these stories that would serve to teach humanity spiritual verities, while setting up the scene for the Messiah to incarnate.

As an example, when the Bible says that YHWH hated Esau and loved Jacob, it is speaking of the two human natures that are born in the womb of women - one is hated by God, meaning one is not favored and will not receive divine help, and the other is loved, meaning it is favored and will receive divine assistance. And so within each of us are an Esau and a Jacob. Two natures (Romans 7). The bestial nature is not favored and will not receive assistance or Mercy in accomplishing its sinful objectives, but the godly soul is favored and will receive divine assistance or Mercy to accomplish its godly objectives, which as Paul teaches us in Romans 7 is in accordance to the will of God.

If we take this understanding to Romans 9, we just might see something new. You can click on the link to read.

What do we see?

We see that God has a plan, and has designed or placed upon earth certain humans, certain peoples, as vessels through which the plan or the Father's work can be accomplished. And who are we to question our calling or what role we might have in that plan?

The plan or the Father's work is the salvation of the entire world.

When we consider this in reading the Old Testament, we realize that when YHWH speaks or when a prophet of YHWH speaks, they are are speaking about spiritual principles or archetypes found throughout creation, and not just about certain people or one nation or race.

So the prophecies, the blessings and curses, described in the Old Testament do not solely have to do with the children of Israel, or a specific peoples or places, but with all people - individually and collectively.

Shalom!

Viv

Thanks, Viv.

I like your larger perspective on the whole Jacob 'n Esau thing--on a basis representing humanity as a whole.

But I really don't believe God willy nilly chooses people to love and people to hate without some prior provocation on our part.

Thanks.

[wonbyone]

I can only tell you that I know that God will save all whom he CAN save. And if a person chooses to rebel, God cannot save that person until he chooses to repent.

Paul did not teach that God created some people for the express purpose to be objects of his hatred. For me, these verses in Romans are only a testimony that God does know us all and knew us all before we received our mortal tabernacles.

I use modern revealed scripture to help me understand passages like this in Romans.

Alma 13:3
And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

D&C 138:56.
56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

Abraham 3:22-23
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

That's my perspective. I think I have a firm grasp on yours.

Thanks.

How do you know that your modern revealed scriptures are from God? Is it a feeling? Is it because joseph smith said so? Is there any tangible evidence?

[OtherCheek]

How do you know that your modern revealed scriptures are from God? Is it a feeling? Is it because joseph smith said so? Is there any tangible evidence?

Start a thread. Oh wait. You did. I'll see you there.

Thanks.

[RBerman]

I can only tell you that I know that God will save all whom he CAN save. And if a person chooses to rebel, God cannot save that person until he chooses to repent.

I'm glad I believe in a God with more power than that. I never would have chosen to repent if God had not graciously changed my heart first.

Paul did not teach that God created some people for the express purpose to be objects of his hatred. For me, these verses in Romans are only a testimony that God does know us all and knew us all before we received our mortal tabernacles.

Go back and read those verses again, because they say what you deny, rather than what they testify "for you." But as you admit,you interpret the Bible through the lens of the Mormon scriptures, so of course we're going to reach different conclusions about what it says and means.

[OtherCheek]

I'm glad I believe in a God with more power than that. I never would have chosen to repent if God had not graciously changed my heart first.

Perhaps it was you who humbled yourself first, thus allowing God to work a miracle in you--one that He always wanted to work.

Go back and read those verses again, because they say what you deny, rather than what they testify "for you." But as you admit,you interpret the Bible through the lens of the Mormon scriptures, so of course we're going to reach different conclusions about what it says and means.

True, true. We each look through our own lenses, dont' we.

Thanks.

Peace, and long life.

[Vivian]

Thanks, Viv.

I like your larger perspective on the whole Jacob 'n Esau thing--on a basis representing humanity as a whole.

But I really don't believe God willy nilly chooses people to love and people to hate without some prior provocation on our part.

Thanks.

You are absolutely right!

Esau and Jacob represent the two natures in all of us, and in any one nationality, and in humanity as a collective. What Paul is speaking of in the verses that often are quoted to justify the Calvinistic interpretation of election is actually speaking of a mystery, which is better not to go into here. But if we want to interpret these verses in relation to election, he speaks of the same in 2 Timothy where he actually says just what you are saying...

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

If we were to take these two mentions of the 2 different kinds of vessels together, we would see that Paul is admonishing us when we find ourselves imprisoned in a vessel of dishonor...don't question God, but repent and seek the highest within ourselves, thereby being purified, so that we might be made by his Grace into a vessel of honor, useful for his purposes.

And so if we find ourselves an Esau, walking without the favor of God, then we are called to purify ourselves, so that we might be made into vessels of honor, walking in the favor of God.

When others argue with us regarding good works versus grace, it is nonsensical. We are responsible. Period. Not to earn brownie points, but so that we might be purified. To be purified, to be a vessel of honor, we must walk in obedience. And in becoming a vessel of honor we will receive God's favor - the Grace necessary for salvation. Salvation is way much more that God putting a check by our name and saying you in, but you out, we must be remade, transformed in a process that requires Grace, but to receive that Grace, as Paul teaches, we must be vessels of honor. We must be cleansed.

John 3: 6 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

He who believes comes to Jesus for healing, for purification, to made into a vessel of honor, so that he might receive the favor of God, the Grace necessary for salvation.

All according to scripture.

Shalom!

Viv

[OtherCheek]

You are absolutely right!

Esau and Jacob represent the two natures in all of us, and in any one nationality, and in humanity as a collective. What Paul is speaking of in the verses that often are quoted to justify the Calvinistic interpretation of election is actually speaking of a mystery, which is better not to go into here. But if we want to interpret these verses in relation to election, he speaks of the same in 2 Timothy where he actually says just what you are saying...

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

If we were to take these two mentions of the 2 different kinds of vessels together, we would see that Paul is admonishing us when we find ourselves imprisoned in a vessel of dishonor...don't question God, but repent and seek the highest within ourselves, thereby being purified, so that we might be made by his Grace into a vessel of honor, useful for his purposes.

And so if we find ourselves an Esau, walking without the favor of God, then we are called to purify ourselves, so that we might be made into vessels of honor, walking in the favor of God.

When others argue with us regarding good works versus grace, it is nonsensical. We are responsible. Period. Not to earn brownie points, but so that we might be purified. To be purified, to be a vessel of honor, we must walk in obedience. And in becoming a vessel of honor we will receive God's favor - the Grace necessary for salvation. Salvation is way much more that God putting a check by our name and saying you in, but you out, we must be remade, transformed in a process that requires Grace, but to receive that Grace, as Paul teaches, we must be vessels of honor. We must be cleansed.

John 3: 6 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

He who believes comes to Jesus for healing, for purification, to made into a vessel of honor, so that he might receive the favor of God, the Grace necessary for salvation.

All according to scripture.

Shalom!

Viv

Thanks. Well stated.

[RBerman]

Not all "clay pot" metaphors in Scripture are using the metaphor the same way. It's a category mistake to interpret Romans 9 in the light of 2 Timothy. The proper Scriptural referents for "God the potter" are these instead:

Isaiah 29:15-16

15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?"
You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

Isaiah 45:9

"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

Those passages are unequivocally about what God is doing in man, whereas 2 Timothy uses the pot metaphor for what man is doing in himself.

[Vivian]

Not all "clay pot" metaphors in Scripture are using the metaphor the same way. It's a category mistake to interpret Romans 9 in the light of 2 Timothy. The proper Scriptural referents for "God the potter" are these instead:

Isaiah 29:15-16

15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?"
You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

Isaiah 45:9

"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

Those passages are unequivocally about what God is doing in man, whereas 2 Timothy uses the pot metaphor for what man is doing in himself.

Haha!

God is always the potter in all references, yes?

The one in 2 Timothy says nothing about who formed the vessels - it says though that we are responsible for cleansing the vessel of dishonor. There is a mystery here. We were formed in the womb of our mother with two natures. We here and now had nothing to do with it!

Do you see?

Our responsibility is not in forming the two natures in our mothers' wombs, but in cleansing the vessel of dishonor. We are not responsible for the formation of the vessel of dishonor within us - this is what Paul says we should not question, but we are responsible for repenting and coming to Jesus to be cleansed.

Go figure.

Shalom!

Viv