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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #91
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The claim of correspondence of truth is problematic, . . .
    For you: That is why you are agnostic.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Well, exactly what did God do to let you know?
      Gave me eternal life. Not to be confused with immoratality which is yet to be given when Jesus, God's Christ returns to this eart

      So, how did god communicate to you knowledge of his existence?
      Already had it. Even as you and Roy do right now.

      Telling me what god didn't do to make himself known to you doesn't explain how he did make himself known to you. Shall I assume you have no answer to that?
      What do you mean?
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Gods have always done that, regardless of which god...it's part of their job description.
        There are no more than the one true God. So what do you mean? Give the example you have in mind.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          Yes, that is your claim. Why should I believe it?
          How do you recognize what you accept as to be true?
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            You actually claimed "I have evidence for God. And it is evidence available to anyone." But that's not true. You don't have evidence that is available to anyone, you (supposedly) have evidence that is only available to you. You are assuming that others can obtain equivalent evidence, but you won't say what that evidence is, or how to obtain it.
            Hmm. You have the evidence for God already. You just no longer believe it. The universe is the primary evidence. Logical deduction as to God`s identiy being the uncaused existence. What you lack is the personal revelation in which one possesses eternal life through God's Christ.

            You have nothing but empty claims, empty assertions, and empty arguments that you yourself reject:

            Shub-Niggurath himself will provide you with personal evidence. But Shub-Niggurath is not going to force it on you.

            Is that sufficient for you to accept that Shub-Niggurath exists? If it isn't, why should anyone take any notice of your claim about God?
            You are talking nonsense now.
            Last edited by 37818; 02-12-2017, 11:06 AM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post

              We can agree that there is something which exists uncaused. We do not agree on the properties of this uncaused existence. If you want us to believe that this uncaused existence has the properties which you ascribe to God, you will need to give a better argument than that there is some uncaused existence, and that you hold a sincere belief that this is God.
              Uncaused existence, is eternal, omnipresent, posesses all things. Its law of the excluded middle, it is either the idenitity of God or it is not. Since it needs no God. The uncaused existence is the meaning of God's Hebrew Name.

              Again, it is completely beyond the linguistic evidence to translate the Tetragrammaton as "self-existent." I suspect that your concordances are offering translations which take theological argument into account.
              I have other books. It is the third person singlular of "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.
              The short, short version is that I came to understand that I held some theological views which I could not reasonably support. I decided to go back to First Principles in order to see if I could convince myself of the truth of Christianity. Much to my surprise, I found that I could not even levy a truly convincing argument for God's existence. As I could no longer bring myself to believe that deity exists, and as this is the prime foundation of all of Christianity, it therefore followed that I could no longer bring myself to have faith in Christianity.
              So you being convinced there can be no God preceded your denial of your held faith.


              As I see no reason to believe in Mind-Body Dualism, it seems clear that intelligence is a product of chemistry and physics in the brain. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and other chemical elements are not intelligent. Electricity and other aspects of physics are not intelligent. And yet, intelligence comes from them. I see no reason to think that some external intelligence is necessary to the advent of natural intelligence.
              Have you read "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Uncaused existence, is eternal, omnipresent, posesses all things.
                I can agree on "eternal," but only for certain definitions of "eternal." I'm not sure I can agree with "omnipresent," since I don't believe that existence is a concrete object. I certainly don't agree that existence "possesses" anything, let alone all things.

                Its law of the excluded middle, it is either the idenitity of God or it is not. Since it needs no God.
                I don't believe that it is the identity of God. Do you have anything beyond bald assertion to demonstrate that it is?

                The uncaused existence is the meaning of God's Hebrew Name.

                I have other books. It is the third person singlular of "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.
                The third-person singular of the verb "to be" is certainly not the same as "self-existent" or "uncaused existence."

                So you being convinced there can be no God preceded your denial of your held faith.
                Nope. My realization that the idea of God to which I had previously held was incoherent, combined with a lack of a cogent correction to the concept in which I could believe, precipitated in my rejection of my previously held faith.

                Have you read "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies?
                Nope.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Gave me eternal life. Not to be confused with immoratality which is yet to be given when Jesus, God's Christ returns to this earth.
                  Those are beliefs, not knowledge.
                  Already had it. Even as you and Roy do right now.
                  No you didn't, you still don't have it. Telling me that I know god exists is just silly, because I very obviously do not know that, and have seen no evidence of it.
                  What do you mean?
                  What I meant was, shall I assume that you have no idea as to what you are talking about, That you are making stuff up, because you don't have a legitimate answer to the question as to how you know god exists.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    There are no more than the one true God.
                    That's what they all say.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      I want to stop wasting time. Yet again you claim to have evidence of 'God', but you still haven't actually produced any.
                      The evidence is at least three fold: 1) A caused univese. 2) An uncaused cause. All causes are finite and temporal. An uncaused existence. What is uncaused is eternal. 3) God has and reveals Himself.
                      ...
                      Item 3 is what you lack.
                      Correct. The reason I lack it is because you haven't produced it.
                      My guess you do not have a clear understanding on how you personally know anything.
                      My guess - though it's really more of a conclusion - is that you have no evidence, and are not worth listening to.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        So, how did god communicate to you knowledge of his existence?
                        Already had it. Even as you and Roy do right now.
                        Just like you have knowledge of Winnie-the-Pooh's existence, right?
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Hmm. You have the evidence for God already. You just no longer believe it.
                          Bovine faeces.

                          You have the evidence for Shub-Niggurath and Winnie-the-Pooh already. You just no longer believe it.

                          You are providing evidence of nothing more than your own incapacity.
                          Last edited by Roy; 02-13-2017, 07:20 AM.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            For you: That is why you are agnostic.
                            I am not agnostic. I just do not pursue a self indulgent world of assertions and fantasy arguments for the existence of God. God does not need circular self fulfilling fallacious fallible human arguments to exist.

                            I simply believe in God.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Knowing the gospel, which anyone who has read it can claim to know, is not the same thing as knowing that the god it proclaims exists. The question is how do you know god, not how do you know biblical claims of god.
                              Why are there more counterfites claiming to be Christianity than any other faith system? If you were to explain the gospel, what could you explain?
                              The Apostle Paul claims the reason people are lost is the lack of the gospel. It is being hidden. see reference 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
                              So I am asking you, if you were to explain the gospel, what could you explain?


                              Not being falsified is not the question. How do you know is the question.
                              How does anyone know anything? How do you know anything? How does one know someone else? Again, the Apostle Paul wrote about everyone having knowledge of God. see reference Romans 1:18-22. Ironically an atheist unwittingly wrote a book explaining one aspect of this.
                              Intelligence is not an existing thing in itself, its an aquired ability. So the answer is that intelligence is an aquired ability of organized matter resulting from its interaction with its environment. How does a flower know to lean in the direction of the sun? You're right, it doesn't, it hasn't formed a more complex nervous system, but it is the beginning of knowing.
                              How do you know any of that? Concepts and ideas do
                              exist
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Why are there more counterfites claiming to be Christianity than any other faith system? If you were to explain the gospel, what could you explain?
                                I would say that the gospels were written anonymously 40 to 60 years after the alleged “events” and were non-eyewitness accounts. They were most probably embellished anecdotal stories which had been passed down from person to person over the decades with the purpose of selling the Jesus story.

                                The Apostle Paul claims the reason people are lost is the lack of the gospel. It is being hidden. see reference 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
                                So I am asking you, if you were to explain the gospel, what could you explain?
                                Quoting the bible to “prove” the bible is not proof
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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