A question for atheists . . .

[Tassman]

When you see someone live over a closed circuit video, as an modern example, does that make those you see not physical? Jesus at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55) is there as a man (1 Timothy 2:5). We are not talking about video, but God making the man Jesus' heavenly presence present to Paul (Acts 26:16).

Again, this is not a physical encounter in any way that we would understand such an encounter to be and your analogy with CCTV is really rather desperate.

[Tassman]

Nowhere does Paul say that he has the same experience - only that seeing Christ is seeing Christ. Do you really think that things have to be the same before they can be considered equal?

This is clearly the intention of Paul as indicated by the phrasing and the context. Namely that "Jesus appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve...and last of all he appeared to me also”. There is nothing to indicate that his experience was in any way different to that of the others.

[tabibito]

This is clearly the intention of Paul as indicated by the phrasing and the context. Namely that "Jesus appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve...and last of all he appeared to me also”. There is nothing to indicate that WHETHER his experience was in any way different to that of the others.

1 Corinthians 9:1
I have seen - εωρακα - perfect active indicative first person singular ... no optanomai anywhere within coo-ee.
Context: NOTHING in 1 Cor 9:1 even hints at form. Paul says he saw Christ - the person. The form that Christ had at that time is not mentioned. And please note: I did say 1 Cor 9:1 ... my claim is restricted to the specified verse.

[Tassman]

1 Corinthians 9:1
I have seen - εωρακα - perfect active indicative first person singular ... no optanomai anywhere within coo-ee.
Context: NOTHING in 1 Cor 9:1 even hints at form. Paul says he saw Christ - the person. The form that Christ had at that time is not mentioned. And please note: I did say 1 Cor 9:1 ... my claim is restricted to the specified verse.

Again, there is still nothing to indicate that Paul’s experience was in any way different to that of the others listed in 1 Cor 15.

BTW: Love your "coo-ee" Australianism.

[tabibito]

I don't recall any mention of Christ being seen by one member of a gathering, with no-one else being able to see him. Nor do I recall seeing it mentioned anywhere that another person who saw Christ was blinded by the experience.

he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also,

Where does this say anything about the form Christ was in when he was seen? It says as much about Christ's form as it does about dugongs.
It says nothing about the form of Christ during that event - therefore he was in the same form when Paul saw him that he was in when the other apostles saw him?

[tabibito]

Again, there is still nothing to indicate that Paul’s experience was in any way different to that of the others listed in 1 Cor 15.

BTW: Love your "coo-ee" Australianism.

The use of “optanomai” signifies a degree of awe arising from what is seen: “amazed to see” adequately conveys the nuance.

I was [amazed to see] a pigeon reading kanji (Chinese characters used in Japanese writing) …
I was [amazed to see] a cat driving a bus…

According to the logic that you present: both statements show that each writer saw the same thing.

[37818]

Again, this is not a physical encounter in any way that we would understand such an encounter to be and your analogy with CCTV is really rather desperate.

Are you missing the notice that "what" was being seen was physical? And did you not understand in the case of the appearance from God, God brought the physical in the heaven of heavens to Paul? Your not believing it that is your issue.

[Tassman]

Are you missing the notice that "what" was being seen was physical? And did you not understand in the case of the appearance from God, God brought the physical in the heaven of heavens to Paul? Your not believing it that is your issue.

Exactly! It was the resplendent, transcendent Jesus (not the fleshly physical Jesus) that Paul saw on the Damascene road. Just as the other apostles did as per 1 Cor 15.

[tabibito]

Exactly! It was the resplendent, transcendent Jesus (not the fleshly physical Jesus) that Paul saw on the Damascene road. Just as the other apostles did as per 1 Cor 15.

I was [amazed to see] my old teacher: I thought she was dead! (whilst partaking in a remote lecture via skype or similar)
I was [amazed to see] my old teacher: I thought she was dead! (whilst shopping at Myers)

You have stated yourself that what Paul saw was a "vision" (skype) - that can't be said, as far as I know, for the claims of the other apostles. (Myers)
67818's analogy was far from desperate, but you have a need to dismiss any and all arguments.

[Tassman]

I was [amazed to see] my old teacher: I thought she was dead! (whilst partaking in a remote lecture via skype or similar)
I was [amazed to see] my old teacher: I thought she was dead! (whilst shopping at Myers)

You have stated yourself that what Paul saw was a "vision" (skype) - that can't be said, as far as I know, for the claims of the other apostles. (Myers)
67818's analogy was far from desperate, but you have a need to dismiss any and all arguments.

1 Corinthians 15:8

[tabibito]

1 Corinthians 15:8

εσχατον δε παντων ωσπερει τω εκτρωματι ωφθη καμοι:
lastly but all as if to the untimely born he was seen (by) me also

No mention of the form that was seen, nor of the nature of that form when Paul saw Christ: it is simply stated that Christ was seen. With the nuance that the sight was cause for some measure of astonishment.

[Tassman]

εσχατον δε παντων ωσπερει τω εκτρωματι ωφθη καμοι:
lastly but all as if to the untimely born he was seen (by) me also

No mention of the form that was seen, nor of the nature of that form when Paul saw Christ: it is simply stated that Christ was seen. With the nuance that the sight was cause for some measure of astonishment.

According to the Bible Gateway commentary referencing Acts, “Saul...sees: “the risen Lord Jesus in all his resplendent glory”.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...uls-Conversion

[tabibito]

And "resplendent glory" means what to you? Does the Old Testament record something like that of Moses (admittedly not his own glory) on one occasion?
1 - "resplendent glory" doesn't say anything about what form Christ was in.
2 - "resplendent glory" is not used anywhere in the New Testament - it is something that a scholar considers to be an appropriate description.
3 - Stephen looked up to heaven and saw (ordinary every day eido - insofar as Koine Greek has such a thing) both the glory of God and Christ standing beside him. (Acts 7:55) and the same "saw" that Paul uses when he says "I saw ... James, the Lord's brother."

However, all this is rather beside the point: Paul claims that Christ died and rose and lived again. απεθανεν και ανεστη anistemi και εζησεν (Romans 14:9, 1 Thess 4:14): so for all that the translation isn't woodenly literal, the translation of anistemi is accurate. That is the same word used of Lazarus being resurrected in the gospels, and the word, if I remember an earlier post of yours correctly, that you claimed would be necessary to support a claim that Christ had recovered life in the conventional sense. Romans 14:9 not only claims that Christ rose again, but also claims that he lived.

[37818]

Exactly! It was the resplendent, transcendent Jesus (not the fleshly physical Jesus) that Paul saw on the Damascene road. Just as the other apostles did as per 1 Cor 15.

Other Christians and myself disagree with you, Jesus was (Acts 1:11) and is now in a physical body (1 Timothy 2:5.)

[Tassman]

And "resplendent glory" means what to you?

“Resplendent glory" can only mean a vision in this instance and this is the commonly accepted understanding of Paul's Damascene encounter with Jesus.