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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • Originally posted by Trout View Post
    Science in the gaps ... that makes us all feel better.
    It should make you feel better. Science has a tried and true methodology for filling in gaps of knowledge, religion doesn't.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      It should make you feel better. Science has a tried and true methodology for filling in gaps of knowledge, religion doesn't.
      Not very fun at a witch burn tho.
      The last Christian left at tweb

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trout View Post
        Not very fun at a witch burn tho.
        Laws of thermodynamics apply to witch burnings.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          So thats how you know that God exists? Eternality ='s God?
          As I noted in post #104 there is this book written by an atheist. The title happens to be, BTW, "The 'God` Part of the Brain." ". . . Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; . . ." -- The Chritian Apostle Paul.

          James Moffatt in his OT translation translates God`s Name as "the Eternal."
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            James Moffatt in his OT translation translates God`s Name as "the Eternal."
            That's an even worse translation than the others you've posited. There is absolutely no linguistic justification for translating the Tetragrammaton in this way.
            Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 02-19-2017, 11:29 AM.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              As I noted in post #104 there is this book written by an atheist. The title happens to be, BTW, "The 'God` Part of the Brain." ". . . Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; . . ." -- The Chritian Apostle Paul.

              James Moffatt in his OT translation translates God`s Name as "the Eternal."
              Okay, I guess you're just going to continue to ignore answering my question. In the future i'd suggest that you not make assertions unless you are at least prepared to back them up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                If you want to argue that such an intelligence is possible, let alone likely, then you'll need to do better than bald assertion.
                All arguments are assertions. Atheists can only make a bald assertion there is no God, disallowing evidence as evidence, making the bald assertion there is no evidence - which is not even true.
                If it is physics which you think requires an underlying intelligence, rather than human intelligence directly requiring it, then why start this thread? Why not start a thread asking whether atheists think physics can come from non-intelligence?
                Yeah. But intelligence from non-intelligence was the question that I chose.
                So in order to know God, we have to trust Scripture.
                Not exactly. But one must really want to know what is really true.
                . . . But in order to trust Scripture, we first have to believe God exists. Seems fairly circular, don't you think?
                In that way of thinking about this, yeah.
                Interestingly, it was precisely this willingness which led me to lose my faith in Christianity, so your claim seems empirically incorrect-- at least, in my case.
                Ok. Please step us all though it. I might have missed something.
                Well, if you would like any of us to be convinced of this claim, you are going to need to argue for it, rather than baldly asserting it.
                Well, let us start at square one.
                1) Nothingness never was. Therefore something always was.
                2) Nothingness never existed, therefore existence always existed.
                3) Existence which always existed is uncaused. Uncaused existence.

                4) The universe is in evidence. All evidence is finited and temporal.
                Now this last point is a matter of cause and effect. And not anything is caused by nothingness since nothingness never was.
                5) There is an issue of cause and effect. That all causes are finite and temporal.
                6) The evidence is finite and temporal, and therefore caused.
                Now before we go further, there is a disconect between uncaused existence and cause and effect of that which is finite and temporal existence, caused existence.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  No, your assertion was that you know God, not that you have evidence or arguments that you believe is proof of a Gods existence, but that you have personal knowledge of God, that it is the Christian god. So my question to you was how do you know that this particular god of yours exists. If your argument is simply that something is eternal and some other things are temporal then we can debate that concept as well, but again the question is how do you know the eternal is distinct in substance from the temporal and that that distinct substance is known by you on a personal level.
                  When you talk with a friend on the phone, how do you know that he/she really exists? How do you know that you are not interacting with an AI program like Siri or Alexa? How do you know that the entire relationship with your friend is not just imaginary? And even if you are personally convinced that your friend and your relationship with him/her are real, how can you convince a skeptic that the voice on the phone belongs to a real person?
                  "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    All arguments are assertions. Atheists can only make a bald assertion there is no God, disallowing evidence as evidence, making the bald assertion there is no evidence - which is not even true.
                    Well, no. Not all arguments are assertions. A proposition which is claimed true without any support is a bald assertion. If you actually support your propositions, form them into premises, and then utilizes logical laws of inference in order to come to a conclusion, you have made an argument rather than a bald assertion.

                    Furthermore, it is not true that "Atheists can only make a bald assertion there is no God." I am an atheist, and I make no such assertion. Similarly, I do not claim that there is no evidence, and I often upbraid others who do make such claims. The testimony of believers is evidence, even if we don't find it very convincing evidence.

                    Well, let us start at square one.
                    1) Nothingness never was. Therefore something always was.
                    I agree.
                    2) Nothingness never existed, therefore existence always existed.
                    I'm not sure I agree, but I'll grant this for the sake of argument.
                    3) Existence which always existed is uncaused. Uncaused existence.
                    Depends on what one means by causation. Certainly, in the case of Aristotelian causation.
                    4) The universe is in evidence. All evidence is finited and temporal.
                    Now this last point is a matter of cause and effect. And not anything is caused by nothingness since nothingness never was.
                    5) There is an issue of cause and effect. That all causes are finite and temporal.
                    6) The evidence is finite and temporal, and therefore caused.
                    Even if I grant (4) and (5) for the sake of argument, this doesn't follow. The fact that a thing is finite does not imply that it is caused. By your own argument, that which always existed is uncaused. The universe, even if finite, has always existed.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Atheists can only make a bald assertion there is no God, disallowing evidence as evidence, making the bald assertion there is no evidence - which is not even true.
                      This atheist doesn't claim there is no evidence. I just don't agree that the evidence you offer is sufficient for proving what you say it proves.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        If you disallow assertions. No evidence of any kind can be affirmed. < and that is also an assertion.
                        It's a false assertion. Evidence that is not assertion is available for Ayers rock and the Eiffel Tower - because unlike your god, they actually exist.
                        Those things are in evidence, but they are not evidence for the Christian god. I'm not refusing to understand it, you are refusing to provide anything that I could understand.
                        Are you unable to understand the following claim ascribed to Jesus: ". . . If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . ?" See John 7:17. Who has ever refuted it? Here is an opportunity.
                        I understand it. It is not evidence.

                        Are you unable to understand the difference between assertions and evidence? It certainly seems that way.
                        You said you had evidence available to anyone. But when pushed, you admit your 'evidence' is only available to those who already believe.
                        No, not only to those who believe, but also to those willing to believe.
                        I'm willing to believe in anything there is evidence for. Why isn't the evidence available to me?
                        If the evidence for your god is only available if you already believe in it, then your god is not real.
                        No. The evidence for God and personally knowing God are two distinct things. And both evidences are avialable to everyone.
                        You may believe that, but based on the lack of evidence currently available, you are deluding yourself.

                        There is no more evidence for your god than there is for Winnie-the-Pooh.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          A mere presumption of truth does not make anything true.
                          The act of believing does not make a thing true.
                          But for your claim that the evidence for your god is available to everyone, presumption and belief is all you have.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                            When you talk with a friend on the phone, how do you know that he/she really exists? How do you know that you are not interacting with an AI program like Siri or Alexa? How do you know that the entire relationship with your friend is not just imaginary? And even if you are personally convinced that your friend and your relationship with him/her are real, how can you convince a skeptic that the voice on the phone belongs to a real person?
                            Because in such a case there are actual vocal sounds entering ears and you could convince the skeptics by handing them the phone and allowing them to listen in.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                              When you talk with a friend on the phone, how do you know that he/she really exists? How do you know that you are not interacting with an AI program like Siri or Alexa? How do you know that the entire relationship with your friend is not just imaginary? And even if you are personally convinced that your friend and your relationship with him/her are real, how can you convince a skeptic that the voice on the phone belongs to a real person?
                              There are many easily verifiable ways to confirm phone conversations. You can know their number, ask a question they should know, call the back on the desired number, and even arrange to meet them personally to confirm them physically. None of these are likely possible with anecdotal claims of discourses with God, unless God chooses to do so with a universal direct call without exceptions and conversation with all humanity.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-20-2017, 01:43 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Because in such a case there are actual vocal sounds entering ears and you could convince the skeptics by handing them the phone and allowing them to listen in.
                                How can you convince a skeptic that the vocal sounds are from a real person, and not from an AI program like Siri or Alexa?
                                "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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