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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    “Resplendent glory" can only mean a vision in this instance and this is the commonly accepted understanding of Paul's Damascene encounter with Jesus.
    "Resplendent glory" is the commentator's flowery description of the Biblical record - Where does Paul say "in all his resplendent glory?"
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      "Resplendent glory" is the commentator's flowery description of the Biblical record - Where does Paul say "in all his resplendent glory?"
      You asked what "resplendent glory" (as per the Biblegateway commentary) meant to me. Regardless, Paul’s Damascene encounter with Jesus is commonly understood to have been a vision.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Whatever it was it wasn’t a visible encounter with the physical Jesus.
        How do you know? You don't want it to be an encounter with the physical Jesus, but nothing in the text precludes this. It is a viable possibility.
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        And, it was of the same order as the encounters of those listed in the Little Creed of 1 Cor 15. 3-8
        It is "of the same order" only for Paul's literary purposes in 1 Cor 15. This does not mean that the various "seeings" were identical.
        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Paul had a vision. How does that support your argument that Christ was not raised from death to life in the conventional sense?
          So far -
          optanomai shows that the person seeing something is somewhat awestruck by the sight, and no more than that.
          The record shows that Paul said that Christ, rose from out of death (egeiro) - which, when associated with illness means - "to recover," from death.
          The record further shows that Paul said he was not only rose again (anistemi), but also "returned to life." (anazao) Romans 14:9 (anistemi - the same word that was said of Lazarus when he was raised from death).
          Even by your own claims, Paul saw Christ (albeit in a vision), which he assessed as equal to seeing Christ.

          So - what is your claim (regarding the Biblical claim) that Christ was not raised to life (in the conventional sense) based on?
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            How do you know? You don't want it to be an encounter with the physical Jesus, but nothing in the text precludes this. It is a viable possibility.
            Nothing in the text precludes this, but a physical, fleshly resurrection would not be the obvious understanding of the text if not being viewed through the lens of the decades later gospels and late pseudepigraphic epistles, which were almost certainly corrupted by embellishments. .
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Nothing in the text precludes this, but a physical, fleshly resurrection would not be the obvious understanding of the text if not being viewed through the lens of the decades later gospels and late pseudepigraphic epistles, which were almost certainly corrupted by embellishments. .
              Uh, Acts was almost certainly written as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke. It's by all intents and purposes part of the same work. Luke's gospel, which was written earlier than Acts clearly teaches a bodily, fleshly resurrection of Jesus. The writer of Acts clearly believed in the physical resurrection of Jesus, and did not have the slightest problem with introducing Paul's encounter with the Lord on the road to Damascus, which indicates that he did not think that it posed any sort of problem for a belief in a physical resurrection.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Uh, Acts was almost certainly written as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke. It's by all intents and purposes part of the same work. Luke's gospel, which was written earlier than Acts clearly teaches a bodily, fleshly resurrection of Jesus. The writer of Acts clearly believed in the physical resurrection of Jesus, and did not have the slightest problem with introducing Paul's encounter with the Lord on the road to Damascus, which indicates that he did not think that it posed any sort of problem for a belief in a physical resurrection.
                Acts, written decades after the Pauline account, viewed the vision of Paul in terms of the later embellished tradition of a bodily, fleshly resurrection of Jesus...as I said.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Nothing in the text precludes this, but a physical, fleshly resurrection would not be the obvious understanding of the text if not being viewed through the lens of the decades later gospels and late pseudepigraphic epistles, which were almost certainly corrupted by embellishments. .
                  On the contrary - whoever would expect "Christ lives" to mean "Christ's body is still mouldering in the grave"? Whoever would expect "Christ recovered from death" to mean "Christ's body didn't recover from death"? And Paul claimed both - Christ lives ... Christ recovered from the dead.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    On the contrary - whoever would expect "Christ lives" to mean "Christ's body is still mouldering in the grave"? Whoever would expect "Christ recovered from death" to mean "Christ's body didn't recover from death"? And Paul claimed both - Christ lives ... Christ recovered from the dead.
                    All that can be reasonably assumed from the earliest literature is that the apostles had experiences after Jesus’s death in which he appeared to them as the risen Christ. The question is how these experiences are best to be explained, whether a vision or a fleshly resurrection. A vision seems to be the way to go given Paul’s Damascene encounter which, by common agreement, took visionary form.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      All that can be reasonably assumed from the earliest literature is that the apostles had experiences after Jesus’s death in which he appeared to them as the risen Christ. The question is how these experiences are best to be explained, whether a vision or a fleshly resurrection. A vision seems to be the way to go given Paul’s Damascene encounter which, by common agreement, took visionary form.
                      That Paul believed that Christ was risen in the flesh is established on the basis of Paul's testimony - even disregarding the testimony of the gospels. The circumstances in which Paul saw Christ, and the circumstances under which others saw him are not relevant to the matter of Christ being risen in the flesh. However - when the gospel accounts and the Acts accounts are considered, the record shows that Christ appeared in the flesh to (at the least) most of the others.

                      Not one, but two, statements made by Paul declare that the record of Christ's crucifixion was available, in writing, before he wrote to his audience. That Paul believed authoritative accounts of Christ's crucifixion to be in existence during his life-time is established.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        That Paul believed that Christ was risen in the flesh is established on the basis of Paul's testimony - even disregarding the testimony of the gospels.
                        What testimony?

                        The circumstances in which Paul saw Christ, and the circumstances under which others saw him are not relevant to the matter of Christ being risen in the flesh.
                        They are entirely relevant.

                        However - when the gospel accounts and the Acts accounts are considered, the record shows that Christ appeared in the flesh to (at the least) most of the others.
                        Only by reading back into the Pauline literature the embellished accounts of the gospels

                        Not one, but two, statements made by Paul declare that the record of Christ's crucifixion was available, in writing, before he wrote to his audience. That Paul believed authoritative accounts of Christ's crucifixion to be in existence during his life-time is established.
                        What are these “authoritative accounts”?
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          What testimony?
                          There is absolutely no evidence that the Apostle Paul did not believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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