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  • #31
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    That doesn't follow, at all. Even if there does exist some uncaused intelligence which existed prior to all caused intelligence, that does not imply that the former is therefore the cause of the latter. It is entirely possible for the two to have no causal relation to one another, whatsoever-- to say nothing at all about "all caused things," in general!

    Yes. It also does not disallow it. Uncaused cause has two natures. Uncaused being eternal, and a cause being finite and temporal. Order is also finite and temporal. Such as a singlar unit or such as one. Cause entails order. Intelligence entails order. Infinite past, infinite order, infinite intelligence. How do we connect cause, order, intelligence and consciousness in a meaningful way?
    Last edited by 37818; 01-29-2017, 11:23 AM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Yes. It also does not disallow it.
      Okay, so then if you want to assert that there is some pre-existent intelligence which is the cause of all contingent things, you're going to need to support that claim.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        I know, a functioning nervous system, and how it emerges from non-intelligent matter, seems to be the direct topic. Now, your assumption is that if a functioning nervous system emerges from non-intelligent matter then it must be the case that non-intelligent matter has been intelligently designed with that end in mind. Of course that could be the case, but it could just as well be the case that intelligent matter, the emergence of a functioning nervous system, like the emergence of life itself, is simply the result of natural causes. In fact your question is similar to the question regarding the emergence of living matter, from non-living matter. In the latter case, living matter itself need not exist prior to its emergence from non-living matter, and so too, in the former, intelligence need not exist prior to its emergence from non-intelligence.
        From the point of view, that life comes from non-life, nervous systems comes from life, brains come from nervous systems, conciousness comes from brains, from which we get intelligence. And all of that by a chemical instruction set we call DNA, that process of change we call evolution. Chemicals from elements, the elements from the stars . . . . from the very laws of physics.

        If intelligence pre-exists caused intelligence then that uncaused inelligence would be the reason for all caused things.
        Could be the case, but for your assertion that it is the case, you have no evidence of fact, or of its necessity.
        I have evidence for God. And it is evidence available to anyone. For starters, facts have to exist to be a fact. God's identity is the uncaused existence without which there cannot be caused existence. To say there is no God is to deny that the uncaused existence is God.
        Last edited by 37818; 01-29-2017, 12:05 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          From the point of view, that life comes from non-life, nervous systems comes from life, brains come from nervous systems, conciousness comes from brains, from which we get intelligence. And all of that by a chemical instruction set we call DNA, that process of change we call evolution. Chemicals from elements, the elements from the stars . . . . from the very laws of physics.
          And your point is? I guess your point is the same one you're trying to make, i.e. that of design. But the problem is that there is no need of a designer in order to explain the inherent nature of a thing or the laws by which that thing is defined. Your argument seems simply to be that because the world is law driven then those laws must have been instilled by a designer. But the laws and the resulting evolution of a thing can just as well be natural and inherent to the thing itself.
          I have evidence for God. And it is evidence available to anyone. For starters, facts have to exist to be a fact. God's identity is the uncaused existence without which there cannot be caused existence. To say there is no God is to deny that the uncaused existence is God.
          Thats just false. The assertion of God is yours, and so it is yours to prove, but you can't prove it because the only evidence you have of existence is the existence of the material world and the material world can be the uncaused existence of all the temporal changes, or effects, within itself. You can't just assert that God is a fact. Facts aren't facts just because you say so.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            I have evidence for God. And it is evidence available to anyone. For starters, facts have to exist to be a fact. God's identity is the uncaused existence without which there cannot be caused existence. To say there is no God is to deny that the uncaused existence is God.
            No, to “say there is no God” is to say that existence just “is”. It is an unjustified leap of faith to attribute it to a deity, basically a 'god-of-the-gaps' argument.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Do you actually believe intelligence comes from non-intelligence?
              Yes.

              I suspect you do too, unless you have very strange ideas about the development of mammalian embryos.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
              MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                I have evidence for God. And it is evidence available to anyone. For starters, facts have to exist to be a fact. God's identity is the uncaused existence without which there cannot be caused existence. To say there is no God is to deny that the uncaused existence is God.
                What you actually have is assertions for God, and equivocations for God. No evidence - just a shell-game.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  And your point is? I guess your point is the same one you're trying to make, i.e. that of design. But the problem is that there is no need of a designer in order to explain the inherent nature of a thing or the laws by which that thing is defined. Your argument seems simply to be that because the world is law driven then those laws must have been instilled by a designer. But the laws and the resulting evolution of a thing can just as well be natural and inherent to the thing itself.
                  My point is on the premise there not being any God you must still have some kind of uncaused fundamentals from which caused things come - including our caused intelligence. My argument being given an inifinite past there can be an intelligence that would be god like to us. Then my question, why not?
                  Thats just false.
                  Why is my evidence false? It being evidence anyone can have.

                  The assertion of God is yours, . . .
                  Am I the only one who knows God? Not just knowing about a concept, but knows God. And they would be lying to say they did not.
                  . . . and so it is yours to prove, but you can't prove it because the only evidence you have of existence is the existence of the material world and the material world can be the uncaused existence of all the temporal changes, or effects, within itself. You can't just assert that God is a fact. Facts aren't facts just because you say so.
                  Again, on the premise that there is no God.
                  As I have often explained, uncaused existence has no God.

                  So either that is the sole reason there cannot be any God or that just happens to be God's fundamental evidence who and what He is.

                  And what evidence do atheists provide? Atheists really do not want the real evidence. And when they do, they do become deists, theists or some kind of christians.

                  Antony Flew, an atheist, on the evidence for design, became a deist.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    My argument being given an inifinite past there can be an intelligence that would be god like to us.
                    I see no reason why this should be the case. If you want to claim that it is the case, you'll need to support that claim.

                    And what evidence do atheists provide?
                    For what claim?

                    Antony Flew, an atheist, on the evidence for design, became a deist.
                    We might equally point to any number of people, including myself, who were Christians but became atheists after being introduced to the evidence. Obviously, you would not see this as being a particularly powerful argument for atheism; so I'm not sure why you think it is a particularly powerful argument for theism or deism.

                    I'm quite familiar with the information which supposedly brought Flew to deism. I find it wholly unconvincing. If you are trying to convince atheists that we are mistaken, you'll need a better argument than this.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      My point is on the premise there not being any God you must still have some kind of uncaused fundamentals from which caused things come - including our caused intelligence. My argument being given an infinite past there can be an intelligence that would be god like to us. Then my question, why not?
                      . . . because it is possible that the nature of our physical existence and Natural Law is uncaused and eternal.

                      Why is my evidence false? It being evidence anyone can have.
                      . . . because by the definition of objective evidence you have no evidence.

                      Am I the only one who knows God? Not just knowing about a concept, but knows God. And they would be lying to say they did not.
                      Most likely no one 'knows' God, we believe on faith. The ultimate nature of God is unknown by mortals. Flew actually reached this same conclusion concerning his belief in Deism.

                      Again, on the premise that there is no God.
                      As I have often explained, uncaused existence has no God.
                      It is possible that uncaused existence has no God.

                      So either that is the sole reason there cannot be any God or that just happens to be God's fundamental evidence who and what He is.
                      The fundamental reason God is God is unknown to human speculation.

                      And what evidence do atheists provide? Atheists really do not want the real evidence. And when they do, they do become deists, theists or some kind of Christians.
                      Atheists believe there is no objective evidence for the existence of God, and see no reason to believe, because of this. Inconsistent beliefs over the millennia of human beliefs based on ancient mythology and questionable text further reinforces their doubt.

                      Yes, some become deists, theists or some kind of Christians . . . , than again some 'deists, theists or some kind of Christians . . .' become atheists and agnostics.

                      Antony Flew, an atheist, on the evidence for design, became a deist.
                      So what ?!?!!? Deism is a long way from theism, and believes in this context God is not involved, if God exists and is unknowable. Also, theists do become atheists. Actually, as a matter fact the belief there is Deist God not remotely involved in the affairs of God's Creation is closer to atheism or agnosticism than theism.

                      Arguing from the selective popularity of the conversion from one belief to another is a fallacious argument. The change of belief one way or another goes neither way as far as objective evidence.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-01-2017, 09:43 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        No, to “say there is no God” is to say that existence just “is”. It is an unjustified leap of faith to attribute it to a deity, basically a 'god-of-the-gaps' argument.
                        No, I do not think that is case. There is a difference between "existence" that just "is" and caused existence even on the premise there being no God. In order for there to even be a God, God would have to be that very same "existence" that just "is." Not the space-time, not the matter and energy in it.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          No, I do not think that is case. There is a difference between "existence" that just "is" and caused existence even on the premise there being no God.
                          Why introduce the premise that there is a god?

                          In order for there to even be a God, God would have to be that very same "existence" that just "is." Not the space-time, not the matter and energy in it.
                          As far as we know existence just “is”, why add a god to the equation?
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            No, I do not think that is case. There is a difference between "existence" that just "is" and caused existence even on the premise there being no God. In order for there to even be a God, God would have to be that very same "existence" that just "is." Not the space-time, not the matter and energy in it.
                            No, there is no difference between "existence" that just "is" an caused existence. They are both one and the same eternal thing. The stuff you are made of "just is", even when you no longer "is".

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              My argument being given an inifinite past there can be an intelligence that would be god like to us. Then my question, why not?
                              Alternatively, given an infinite past there can be a purple giraffe with carborundum testicles and inbuilt microwave antennae. Why not?

                              And what evidence do atheists provide? Atheists really do not want the real evidence.
                              You haven't provided any real evidence. Just arguments that you don't even accept yourself when used for anything other than "god".
                              Last edited by Roy; 02-02-2017, 03:32 AM.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                              MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post

                                I suspect you do too, unless you have very strange ideas about the development of mammalian embryos.
                                So are you arguing mammalian embryos are a case non-intelligence which become an intelligence?
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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