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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Literal translations of Biblical names?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    there is more,

    next it says
    1 Corinthians 15:49

    καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου
    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


    εἰκών = Hebrew "tzelem"

    It makes very much think of what Rashi says about "in his image", "b'tzalmo" Genesis 1:27,

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



    And next:


    Adam understood as "ani domeh" (= I am like, I do resemble ) by both Rashi and Paul

    See also:

    http://www.hebreeuwseacademie.nl/ind...ish&pid=tradam
    Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?

      Not only for the authors of Genesis, but also for the authors of NT.

      Even that it is about the very essence of New Testament, the blood of the covenant.

      Blood = Hebrew "dam", showing the same rootletters as Adam.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?
        Would you be willing to offer a reason why not?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Calminian View Post
          Would you be willing to offer a reason why not?
          It's like saying beverage commonly known as 'Tea' actually means 'estimated time of arrival' because the letters of 'Tea' can be rearranged to 'ETA'.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            It's like saying beverage commonly known as 'Tea' actually means 'estimated time of arrival' because the letters of 'Tea' can be rearranged to 'ETA'.
            I may be misunderstanding both positions. I wouldn't argue Adam means dirt anymore than Cain means possession. Rather Adam (mankind) was named after the dirt he was made from and that he will return to.

            In your analogy, TEA and ETA have no etymological relationship.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Calminian View Post
              I may be misunderstanding both positions. I wouldn't argue Adam means dirt anymore than Cain means possession. Rather Adam (mankind) was named after the dirt he was made from and that he will return to.

              In your analogy, TEA and ETA have no etymological relationship.
              Exactly my point. Geert is playing with with letters and unrelated words rather than talking about the actual meaning of the words as used by the authors of Genesis. For example, he wants to understand 'adam (אדם) as a combination of the ' (א) from 'ni (אֲנִי), meaning 'I', and the dm (דם) from the verb damah (דָּמָה), meaning 'to be like', but he also wants to use the dm (דם) from the 'adam (אדם) to mean dam or 'blood' (דָּם). Playing with words and letters to introduce different ideas, sometimes even profound ideas, can be fun, but it has nothing to do with trying to understand the words as used by the historical authors.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Exactly my point. Geert is playing with with letters and unrelated words rather than talking about the actual meaning of the words as used by the authors of Genesis. For example, he wants to understand 'adam (אדם) as a combination of the ' (א) from 'ni (אֲנִי), meaning 'I', and the dm (דם) from the verb damah (דָּמָה), meaning 'to be like', but he also wants to use the dm (דם) from the 'adam (אדם) to mean dam or 'blood' (דָּם). Playing with words and letters to introduce different ideas, sometimes even profound ideas, can be fun, but it has nothing to do with trying to understand the words as used by the historical authors.


                Genesis 5:1,
                In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God made he him

                in the likeness of God = "bid'mut elohim"

                Genesis 5:2,
                He named them Adam on the day they were created.

                He named them = "vayikra et shemam"

                Which is rather compellling: Adam = "ani domeh"


                Ezechiel 19:10 links "dam" , blood, with "d'mut" likeness.

                Your mother is like a vine in your likeness


                in your likeness = בְּדָמְךָ, "b'damcha" = with your blood = wine (fruit of the vine)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                  Genesis 5:1,
                  In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God made he him

                  in the likeness of God = "bid'mut elohim"

                  Genesis 5:2,
                  He named them Adam on the day they were created.

                  He named them = "vayikra et shemam"

                  Which is rather compellling: Adam = "ani domeh"


                  Ezechiel 19:10 links "dam" , blood, with "d'mut" likeness.

                  Your mother is like a vine in your likeness


                  in your likeness = בְּדָמְךָ, "b'damcha" = with your blood = wine (fruit of the vine)
                  Sorry, Geert, but none of this is compelling or even ever so slightly plausible to the least possible extent imaginable.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Mark 10:45,

                    καὶ γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἦλθεν διακονηθῆναι ἀλλὰ διακονῆσαι καi δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ λύτρον ἀντὶ πολλῶν = for also the son of man ( = ben (ha)Adam) didn't come to be served, but to serve and give his soul as ransom for the many.

                    ψυχή = Hebrew "nefesh" = soul

                    Blood is the soul of the flesh.

                    Genesis 9:4,
                    But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.

                    Mark 14:24,
                    Τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ ἐκχυννόμενον ὑπὲρ πολλῶν: -- this is my blood of the covenant that is poured out for many.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Genesis 4:9-11

                      Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know; am I my brother's keeper?” And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.


                      The voice your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground
                      Hebrew קוֹל דְּמֵי אָחִיךָ צֹעֲקִים אֵלַי מִן הָאֲדָמָה, "kol d'mei achicha tzoakim elai min ha-adamah"--

                      Rashi:
                      Your brother’s blood: Heb. דְּמֵי, the plural form. His blood and the blood of his descendants.

                      cf. Matthew 23:35,
                      so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah


                      On all of them who persist that the name Adam should mean "from the ground" --

                      like also the manslayer, ἀνθρωποκτόνος, from the beginning (John 8:44)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Robrecht already did that in post #3

                        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post410281
                        And did it very well. Whether Adam ever existed is a separate issue.

                        Comment

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