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Faith is not to be accompanied by anything at conversion?

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  • Faith is not to be accompanied by anything at conversion?

    Some people think that in order to be consistent with the doctrine of justification by faith alone, one must believe that faith does not have to be accompanied by anything at the time of someone's conversion. They say that if turning away from one's sins must accompany faith at conversion, then justification is not by faith alone. I would disagree with this. Faith is the sole means of receiving justification. Other things accompany faith during conversion, but those things are consequences of receiving a new nature. What do you think?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
    Some people think that in order to be consistent with the doctrine of justification by faith alone, one must believe that faith does not have to be accompanied by anything at the time of someone's conversion. They say that if turning away from one's sins must accompany faith at conversion, then justification is not by faith alone. I would disagree with this. Faith is the sole means of receiving justification. Other things accompany faith during conversion, but those things are consequences of receiving a new nature. What do you think?
    Without mentioning grace, it's only half right.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Without mentioning grace, it's only half right.
      Get saved BY grace THROUGH faith ... Somehow, the idea has arisen that we receive the conduit as a gift.
      Get water BY pipe THROUGH the tap. Minethinkit the water is what is received.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
        Some people think that in order to be consistent with the doctrine of justification by faith alone, one must believe that faith does not have to be accompanied by anything at the time of someone's conversion. They say that if turning away from one's sins must accompany faith at conversion, then justification is not by faith alone. I would disagree with this. Faith is the sole means of receiving justification. Other things accompany faith during conversion, but those things are consequences of receiving a new nature. What do you think?
        Can I state my trust in you to be friends without at least working to stop/undo my offenses and harms against you? Could a vassal claim allegiance to the king without caring to do anything about their past offenses against the king?

        In both cases the idea is clear enough: mutual trust itself defines the friendship, and allegiance defines the vassal's servanthood to the king. Both are key and will work themselves out into deeds and behavior in line with the trust/allegiance. Nonetheless, I just can't imagine either relationship to be a working relationship with those alone, without the other stuff (e.g. repentance). Hopefully those examples show this need not take from the importance of faith itself, IMO.
        We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
        - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
        In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
        Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bisto View Post
          Can I state my trust in you to be friends without at least working to stop/undo my offenses and harms against you? Could a vassal claim allegiance to the king without caring to do anything about their past offenses against the king?

          In both cases the idea is clear enough: mutual trust itself defines the friendship, and allegiance defines the vassal's servanthood to the king. Both are key and will work themselves out into deeds and behavior in line with the trust/allegiance. Nonetheless, I just can't imagine either relationship to be a working relationship with those alone, without the other stuff (e.g. repentance). Hopefully those examples show this need not take from the importance of faith itself, IMO.
          (Titus 1:1–4; 2:11–14; 3:4–8). The three passages involve the manifestation, or appearance, of God in Christ, rooting the Christian faith in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Only when God the Son took on human flesh in the person of Jesus was the believer’s faith in God made sure. In other words, since God poured out His grace on all humanity, He cleanses His people from their sin and purifies believers for Himself (see Numbers 11:25 and Acts 2:1-4 . This grace of God instructs us to live upright and godly lives in this present age (2:11–3:8).

          Also, when looking into the Old Testament (Torah) for the answers and then seeking them out in the New Testament. We know that the apostle Paul in Hebrews discusses that faith is the assurance of things not seen and that the ancients (or ancestry) believed (as stated with Abraham) and it was accredited to their righteousness. However, the apostle Paul states in the reading of scripture and the prophesy it states this passage, "Isaiah 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities."

          God's grace pours down and purifies believers for Himself. When the prophets stood before God and the heavenly throne, they felt their own sins and then shame. We ourselves are filled with that sense of guilt and remorse but it took God's Son to make us whole as a human being before God - cleansed, as scripture said, Jesus made the many righteous - whole (again) so that they could be "in" Christ and as the Father is with him so it is with His followers.

          The cry of the prophet expresses the normal result of man’s consciousness of contact with God. So Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God” (Exodus 3:6). So Job “abhorred himself and repented in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6). So Peter fell down at his Lord’s feet, and cried, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord” (Luke 5:8). Man at such a time feels his nothingness in the presence of the Eternal, his guilt in the presence of the All-holy. No man can see God and live. (Comp. also 1Samuel 6:20.)

          I am a man of unclean lips.—The prophet’s words present at once a parallel and a contrast to those of Moses in Exodus 4:10. The Lawgiver feels only, or chiefly, his want of the gift of utterance which was needed for his work. With Isaiah the dominant thought is that his lips have been defiled by past sins of speech. How can he join in the praises of the seraphim with those lips from which have so often come bitter and hasty words, formal and ceremonial prayers? (Comp. James 3:2; James 3:9). His lips are “unclean” like those of one stricken, as Uzziah had been, by leprosy (Leviticus 13:45). He finds no comfort in the thought that others are as bad as he is, that he “dwells in the midst of a people of unclean lips.” Were it otherwise, there might be some hope that influence from without might work his purification. As it is, he and his people seem certain to sink into the abyss. To “have seen the King, the Lord of hosts,” was in such a case simply overwhelming (Exodus 33:20).

          It is overwhelming to be "Free" from sin and it is a joy to know that God still leads His Son to us today. Is this out of Trust or Faith? Where does salvation come from? Our loyalty? or is Loyalty come from what God provides or is it "Trust"? When God decides to "Free" us is it like the Exodus from Egypt and when he bends his ears is it that God hears the cries or the pain that we are going through from sin? The best passage is the 10 lepers - only one man returned back to thank our Lord. Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” 19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

          Faith has made you well...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
            Some people think that in order to be consistent with the doctrine of justification by faith alone, one must believe that faith does not have to be accompanied by anything at the time of someone's conversion. They say that if turning away from one's sins must accompany faith at conversion, then justification is not by faith alone. I would disagree with this. Faith is the sole means of receiving justification. Other things accompany faith during conversion, but those things are consequences of receiving a new nature. What do you think?
            Three texts come to mind.
            Mark 16:16,
            He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

            Romans 10:13-14,
            For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? . . .

            Romans 10:9-10,
            That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

            Three promises of works of faith, baptism, prayer and confession coupled with faith toward salvation. Of course none of those works of faith in those texts are being set out to be any kind of requirement in order to be saved.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Marta View Post
              (Titus 1:1–4; 2:11–14; 3:4–8). The three passages involve the manifestation, or appearance, of God in Christ, rooting the Christian faith in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Only when God the Son took on human flesh in the person of Jesus was the believer’s faith in God made sure. In other words, since God poured out His grace on all humanity, He cleanses His people from their sin and purifies believers for Himself (see Numbers 11:25 and Acts 2:1-4 . This grace of God instructs us to live upright and godly lives in this present age (2:11–3:8).

              Also, when looking into the Old Testament (Torah) for the answers and then seeking them out in the New Testament. We know that the apostle Paul in Hebrews discusses that faith is the assurance of things not seen and that the ancients (or ancestry) believed (as stated with Abraham) and it was accredited to their righteousness. However, the apostle Paul states in the reading of scripture and the prophesy it states this passage, "Isaiah 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities."

              God's grace pours down and purifies believers for Himself. When the prophets stood before God and the heavenly throne, they felt their own sins and then shame. We ourselves are filled with that sense of guilt and remorse but it took God's Son to make us whole as a human being before God - cleansed, as scripture said, Jesus made the many righteous - whole (again) so that they could be "in" Christ and as the Father is with him so it is with His followers.

              The cry of the prophet expresses the normal result of man’s consciousness of contact with God. So Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God” (Exodus 3:6). So Job “abhorred himself and repented in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6). So Peter fell down at his Lord’s feet, and cried, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord” (Luke 5:8). Man at such a time feels his nothingness in the presence of the Eternal, his guilt in the presence of the All-holy. No man can see God and live. (Comp. also 1Samuel 6:20.)

              I am a man of unclean lips.—The prophet’s words present at once a parallel and a contrast to those of Moses in Exodus 4:10. The Lawgiver feels only, or chiefly, his want of the gift of utterance which was needed for his work. With Isaiah the dominant thought is that his lips have been defiled by past sins of speech. How can he join in the praises of the seraphim with those lips from which have so often come bitter and hasty words, formal and ceremonial prayers? (Comp. James 3:2; James 3:9). His lips are “unclean” like those of one stricken, as Uzziah had been, by leprosy (Leviticus 13:45). He finds no comfort in the thought that others are as bad as he is, that he “dwells in the midst of a people of unclean lips.” Were it otherwise, there might be some hope that influence from without might work his purification. As it is, he and his people seem certain to sink into the abyss. To “have seen the King, the Lord of hosts,” was in such a case simply overwhelming (Exodus 33:20).

              It is overwhelming to be "Free" from sin and it is a joy to know that God still leads His Son to us today. Is this out of Trust or Faith? Where does salvation come from? Our loyalty? or is Loyalty come from what God provides or is it "Trust"? When God decides to "Free" us is it like the Exodus from Egypt and when he bends his ears is it that God hears the cries or the pain that we are going through from sin? The best passage is the 10 lepers - only one man returned back to thank our Lord. Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” 19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

              Faith has made you well...
              I am using trust, allegiance, etc. simply as possible alternative translations or synonyms of faith (IIRC, the Greek 'pistis' and the Hebrew 'hesed'???). Of course it is ultimately from God and by his grace in Jesus and His own covenant faithfulness and character. I was just sharing my thoughts on the (the way I read it) very specific question in the OP.
              We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
              - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
              In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
              Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                I am using trust, allegiance, etc. simply as possible alternative translations or synonyms of faith (IIRC, the Greek 'pistis' and the Hebrew 'hesed'???). Of course it is ultimately from God and by his grace in Jesus and His own covenant faithfulness and character. I was just sharing my thoughts on the (the way I read it) very specific question in the OP.
                Bitachon (Hebrew) -trust and Emunah (Hebrew) -faith, neeman (Hebrew) - faithful. 2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

                2 Corinthians 4:13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.

                Understood, the point with me was this - What caused salvation to begin when one is within the sin? As a clear example, I gave the passage of the 10 lepers. After Jesus cured all 10 of leprosy there was only "one" that had come back to thank Jesus and to praise God - is this the same with salvation when one is saved from sin? Didn't the apostle Paul state the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10:2-5 and 2 Corinthians 13:7-10. Even though that it was listed on salvation that through baptism and confessing that Jesus is Lord and that he rose from the dead - as it is stated in John 17, "3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." that one is saved.

                Another example was given, and in Romans 10:9-10, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. But still, and pointing toward a question, what initiates God to draw a person to salvation and once salvation is given - then (depending on the person) their faith has excelled? (thinking of the 10 lepers) as the Apostle Paul states, "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

                Is Salvation given out of distress and out of the pain of sin? (to draw a person to God) How are people drawn to salvation? What does it mean for God to draw us to Himself?


                Pointing toward the Psalm 107, "Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble"

                and he delivered them from their distress.

                7 He led them by a straight way
                to a city where they could settle.[B]
                8 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
                and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
                9 for he satisfies the thirsty
                and fills the hungry with good things.



                Nehemiah 9 and Daniel 9 - both prayers point toward the history of Salvation and how Salvation was given. We say that God's grace is both out of being compassionate and out of mercy. In Christian belief (by definition) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings. We read - "13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." Yes, I agree that trust is a branch of these main essentials - as with this thought, "these essentials are eternal, but then Jesus identified love as "the greatest" of all." The question posed to Jesus was, "36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
                Last edited by Marta; 01-26-2017, 06:59 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is kind of hard to explain how one can believe in Christ and yet not believe what he says, methinks.

                  46 “Why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but don’t do what I tell you? (Luke 6:46)
                  21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)
                  15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15 (compare Luke 6:46 above)
                  If a man love me, he will keep my words: John 14:23
                  Last edited by tabibito; 01-29-2017, 05:22 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Is kind of hard to explain how one can believe in Christ and yet not believe what he says, methinks.

                    46 “Why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but don’t do what I tell you? (Luke 6:46)
                    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)
                    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15 (compare Luke 6:46 above)
                    If a man love me, he will keep my words: John 14:23
                    Where does faith come from? and How are people drawn to salvation? What does it mean for God to draw us to Himself?


                    The Scriptures clearly show that faith comes from hearing and responding to the gospel. God uses people to present the gospel to others to accept or reject by free will faith. God does not endow people with saving faith.

                    Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

                    God sent an angel to instruct Phillip to preach the gospel to an Ethiopian man. God also sent an angel to instruct Cornelius to go to Peter who would proclaim the gospel to him. Saul (Apostle Paul before conversion) was told to go to Damascus where he would be told by Ananias what to do. These versus clearly show that God does not zap people with faith as incorrectly claimed by many pastors and preachers.

                    Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot." 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer [is] silent, So He opened not His mouth. 33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth." 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, [here] [is] water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

                    Acts10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout [man] and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 "Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 "He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.... Acts 11:13 "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, `Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 `who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'

                    Acts 22:12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt [there], 13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me, `Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 "Then he said, `The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 `For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 `And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

                    Many pastors and preachers incorrectly use Acts 14:27 to imply that God endows faith by opening the door of faith for selected persons.

                    Acts 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

                    Reference:

                    Where Does Faith Come From?
                    Faith of the Son of God or Your Faith?
                    Last edited by Marta; 01-30-2017, 08:32 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Is kind of hard to explain how one can believe in Christ and yet not believe what he says, methinks.

                      46 “Why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but don’t do what I tell you? (Luke 6:46)
                      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)
                      15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15 (compare Luke 6:46 above)
                      If a man love me, he will keep my words: John 14:23

                      I read this passage this week - I hope that you will like it, as well:



                      PRAYER'S GREAT THANKSGIVING (Colossians 1:12-14)

                      1:12-14 May you give thanks to the Father, who enabled us to obtain our share of the inheritance of God's dedicated people in the Kingdom of light; for he rescued us from the power of darkness, and brought us over into the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption and the forgiveness of sins.

                      Paul turns to grateful thanksgiving for the benefits which the Christian has received in Christ. There are two key ideas here.

                      (i) God has given to the Colossians a share in the inheritance of God's dedicated people. There is in this whole passage a very close correspondence with Paul's words in Acts when he told Agrippa that the work God had given him was: "To open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in God" (Acts 26:18). The first privilege is that there has been given to the Gentiles a share in the inheritance of the chosen people of God. The Jews had always been God's chosen people, but now the door has been opened to all men.

                      (ii) The second key idea lies in the phrase which says, as the Revised Standard Version has it, that God has transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, or, as we have translated it, that God has brought us over into the kingdom of his beloved son. The word which Paul uses for to transfer or to bring over is the Greek verb methistemi (Greek #3179). This is a word with a special use. In the ancient world, when one empire won a victory over another, it was the custom to take the population of the defeated country and transfer it lock, stock and barrel to the conqueror's land. Thus the people of the northern kingdom were taken away to Assyria, and the people of the southern kingdom were taken away to Babylon. So Paul says that God has transferred the Christian to his own kingdom. That was not only a transference but a rescue; and it meant four great things.

                      (a) It meant a transference from darkness to light. Without God men grope and stumble as if walking in the dark. They know not what to do; they know not where they are going. Life is lived in the shadows of doubt and in the darkness of ignorance. When Bilney the martyr read that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, he said that it was like the dawn breaking on a dark night. In Jesus Christ, God has given us a light by which to live and by which to die.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Forgot to site the source: William Barclay's Daily Study Bible


                        (5) WHAT JESUS CHRIST IS TO ALL THINGS (Colossians 1:15-23 continued)
                        In Colossians 1:19-20 Paul sets down certain great truths about the work of Christ for the whole universe.

                        (i) The object of his coming was reconciliation. He came to heal the breach and bridge the chasm between God and man. We must note one thing quite clearly and always retain it in our memories. The initiative in reconciliation was with God. The New Testament never talks of God being reconciled to men, but always of men being reconciled to God. God's attitude to men was love, and it was never anything else. Sometimes a theology is preached which implies that something that Jesus did changed God's attitude from wrath into love. There is no justification in the New Testament for any such view. It was God who began the whole process of salvation. It was because God so loved the world that he sent his Son. His one object in sending his Son into this world was to woo men back to himself and, as Paul puts it, to reconcile all things to himself.

                        (ii) The medium of reconciliation was the blood of the Cross. The dynamic of reconciliation was the death of Jesus Christ. What does Paul mean? He means exactly what he said in Romans 8:32 : "He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?" In the death of Jesus, God is saying to us, "I love you like that. I love you enough to see my Son suffer and die for you." The Cross is the proof that there is no length to which the love of God will refuse to go in order to win men's hearts; and a love like that demands an answering love. If the Cross will not waken love in men's hearts, nothing will.

                        (iii) We must note that Paul says that in Christ God was reconciling all things to himself. The Greek is a neuter (panta, Greek #3956). The point is that the reconciliation of God extends not only to all persons but to all creation, animate and inanimate. The vision of Paul was a universe in which not only the people but the very things were redeemed. This is an amazing thought.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                          I am using trust, allegiance, etc. simply as possible alternative translations or synonyms of faith (IIRC, the Greek 'pistis' and the Hebrew 'hesed'???). Of course it is ultimately from God and by his grace in Jesus and His own covenant faithfulness and character. I was just sharing my thoughts on the (the way I read it) very specific question in the OP.
                          There are a couple of beautiful passages:

                          b) He says that in Jesus are hid all the treasures of wisdom an knowledge. Wisdom is sophia (Greek #4678) and knowledge is gnosis (Greek #1108). These two words do not simply repeat each other; there is a difference between them. Gnosis (Greek #1108) is the power, almost intuitive and instinctive, to grasp the truth when we see it and hear it. But sophia (Greek #4678) is the power to confirm and to commend the truth with wise and intelligent argument, once it has been intuitively grasped. Gnosis (Greek #1108) is that by which a man grasps the truth; sophia (Greek #4678) is that by which a man is enabled to give a reason for the hope that is in him.

                          So, then, the real Church will have the clear-sighted wisdom which can act for the best in any given situation; the wisdom which can instinctively recognize and grasp the truth when it sees it; and the wisdom which can make the truth intelligible to the thinking mind, and persuasively commend it to others.

                          All this wisdom, says Paul, is hidden in Christ. The word he uses for hidden is apokruphos (Greek #614). His very use of that word is a blow aimed at the Gnostics. Apokruphos (Greek #614) means hidden from the common gaze, and therefore secret. We have seen that the Gnostics believed that a great mass of elaborate knowledge was necessary for salvation. That knowledge they set. down in their books which they called apokruphos (Greek #614) because they were barred to the ordinary man. By using this one word Paul is saying, "You Gnostics have your wisdom hidden from ordinary people; we too have our knowledge, but it is not hidden in unintelligible books; it is hidden in Christ and therefore open to all men everywhere." The truth of Christianity is not a secret which is hidden but a secret which is revealed.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Three texts come to mind.
                            Mark 16:16,
                            He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

                            Romans 10:13-14,
                            For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? . . .

                            Romans 10:9-10,
                            That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                            Three promises of works of faith, baptism, prayer and confession coupled with faith toward salvation. Of course none of those works of faith in those texts are being set out to be any kind of requirement in order to be saved.


                            "All through the history of Israel there had been two views of circumcision. There was the view of those who said that in itself it was enough to put a man right with God. It did not matter whether an Israelite was a good man or a bad man; all that mattered was that he was an Israelite and that he had been circumcised.

                            But the great spiritual leaders of Israel and the great prophets took a very different view. They insisted that circumcision was only the outward mark of a man who was inwardly dedicated to God. They used the very word in an adventurous sense. They talked of uncircumcised lips (Exodus 6:12), of a heart which was circumcised or uncircumcised (Leviticus 26:41; Ezekiel 44:7; Ezekiel 44:9; Deuteronomy 30:6); of the uncircumcised ear (Jeremiah 6:10). To them being circumcised did not mean having a certain operation carried out on a man's flesh but having a change effected in his life. Circumcision was, indeed, the badge of a person dedicated to God; but the dedication lay not in the cutting of the flesh but in the excision from his life of everything which was against the will of God.

                            That was the answer of the prophets centuries before: and that was still Paul's answer to the false teachers. He said to them, "You demand circumcision; but you must remember that circumcision does not mean simply the removal of the foreskin from a man's body; it means the putting off of that whole part of his human nature which sets him at variance with God." Then he went on: "Any priest can circumcise a man's foreskin; only Christ can bring about that spiritual circumcision which means cutting away from a man's life everything which keeps him from being God's obedient child."

                            Paul goes further. For him this was not theory but fact. "That very act," he said, "has already happened to you in baptism." When we think of his view of baptism we must remember three things. In the early Church, as today in the mission field and even in the Church extension areas, men were coming straight out of heathenism into Christianity. They were knowingly and deliberately leaving one way of life for another; and making in the act of baptism a conscious decision. This was of course, before the days of infant baptism which did not and could not come until the Christian family had become a reality." Bible Commentaries

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                            • #15
                              I agree that faith doesn't have to be accompanied by anything. That's an important part of the Bible.

                              Romans 4:5
                              But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


                              The whole idea of Christianity is that Jesus is setting up a perfect kingdom, and that, even if we clean up our lives, we are not good enough for it. So based on our faith, God gives us a new life. That new life isn't entirely consummated until the flesh is physically destroyed and remade, to where we won't sin anymore. The flesh is not finally destroyed until death or until the rapture/resurrection.

                              Isaiah 35:8 (NKJV)
                              A highway shall be there, and a road,
                              And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
                              The unclean shall not pass over it, But it shall be for others.
                              Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.


                              Romans 7:24
                              O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


                              God will reward us in the next life based on whether we behave, and he will also discipline us in this life. But our place in the kingdom is assured based on faith alone, despite how well we serve.

                              1 Corinthians 3:14-15
                              If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


                              Hebrews 12:7-8
                              If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

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