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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Faith is not to be accompanied by anything at conversion?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Marta View Post
    <snip>

    Paul goes further. For him this was not theory but fact. "That very act," he said, "has already happened to you in baptism." When we think of his view of baptism we must remember three things. In the early Church, as today in the mission field and even in the Church extension areas, men were coming straight out of heathenism into Christianity. They were knowingly and deliberately leaving one way of life for another; and making in the act of baptism a conscious decision. This was of course, before the days of infant baptism which did not and could not come until the Christian family had become a reality." Bible Commentaries
    Biblically there is no correlation between believer's baptism and circumcision. Though many interpreters have read that meaning into the text because of the false view of sacraments.

    Colossions 2:11-12,
    . . . In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . .


    Burial of baptism is done with hands.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Biblically there is no correlation between believer's baptism and circumcision. Though many interpreters have read that meaning into the text because of the false view of sacraments.

      Colossions 2:11-12,
      . . . In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . .


      Burial of baptism is done with hands.
      Repeating the same quote:


      "But the great spiritual leaders of Israel and the great prophets took a very different view. They insisted that circumcision was only the outward mark of a man who was inwardly dedicated to God. They used the very word in an adventurous sense. They talked of uncircumcised lips (Exodus 6:12), of a heart which was circumcised or uncircumcised (Leviticus 26:41; Ezekiel 44:7; Ezekiel 44:9; Deuteronomy 30:6); of the uncircumcised ear (Jeremiah 6:10). To them being circumcised did not mean having a certain operation carried out on a man's flesh but having a change effected in his life. Circumcision was, indeed, the badge of a person dedicated to God

      That was the answer of the prophets centuries before: and that was still Paul's answer to the false teachers. He said to them, "You demand circumcision; but you must remember that circumcision does not mean simply the removal of the foreskin from a man's body; it means the putting off of that whole part of his human nature which sets him at variance with God." Then he went on: "Any priest can circumcise a man's foreskin; only Christ can bring about that spiritual circumcision which means cutting away from a man's life everything which keeps him from being God's obedient child."

      A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.


      Circumcision:


      1 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

      13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
      • Biblical Hebrew uses the term 'uncircumcised' in relation to ears (Jeremiah 6:10) and lips (Exodus 6:12), the heart (Leviticus 26:41), and the first three-year growth of fruit (Leviticus 19:23). The term seems to imply something over which people have no mastery, an 'uncircumcised of flesh' is someone who does not have control of his body.
      • By circumcision the Jew's body receives the stamp of submission to the Divine will. 'It is on the body in the first instance', declares the foremost nineteenth-century German Jewish commentator, Samson Raphael Hirsch, 'not on the mind, that God founded his Covenant first of all'. Body and soul are judged together.
      • Moreover, the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.”
      • This type of circumcision, by definition a circumcision of the spirit and not the flesh, goes to the heart of a man, to his soul, his essence, his attitudes and relationship with God. Because this theme of an inner circumcision is so important, God repeats and stresses it, as in Deuteronomy 10:12-16
      • Jeremiah declared that all the nations were uncircumcised in the flesh, but the whole house of Israel were of uncircumcised heart (Jer. 9:25). It has been suggested that the Hebrew word for uncircumcised עָרֵל (arel) means properly "obstructed," as is indeed explicitly stated by Rashi (to Lev. 9:23) and the fact that the same word and the related orlah ("foreskin") are also used to describe a certain kind of taboo (ibid.) has resulted in the infelicitous translation of many biblical passages. The word describes the lips of a person whose speech is not fluent (Ex. 6:12, 30) or the heart and ear of a person who will not listen to reason (Jer. 6:10; 9:25; for alternative translations see the JPS translation of the Torah (1962) to Leviticus 19:23 and Deuteronomy 10:16 and 30:6). Such passages as the foregoing, however, do not warrant a purely spiritual interpretation of the commandment which would make the actual physical circumcision superfluous. Ezekiel is full of contempt for the uncircumcised heathen whose fate he foretells (Ezek. 32:21, 24 et al.).


      "To them being circumcised did not mean having a certain operation carried out on a man's flesh but having a change effected in his life. Circumcision was, indeed, the badge of a person dedicated to God"

      "Christ will lead us through sufferings, to glory with him. Those are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most loose to this present life. Though the kindness done to Christ's disciples be ever so small, yet if there be occasion for it, and ability to do no more, it shall be accepted. Christ does not say that they deserve a reward; for we cannot merit any thing from the hand of God; but they shall receive a reward from the free gift of God. Let us boldly confess Christ, and show love to him in all things."

      Receive a reward from the free gift of God:

      What's the difference between a wage and a gift? A wage is something you earn. A gift is something you don't earn, and can't earn. A wage is a matter of debt and justice. A free gift is a matter of beneficence and grace. You can take somebody to court for not paying you your wages; but you can't take anyone to court for not giving you a free gift. You deserve your wages. You don't deserve a free gift. Otherwise it wouldn't be free.

      Ephesians 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"

      Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


      Baptism:


      The practice of baptism as a religious symbol did not begin with Jesus. Baptism, which means literally the immersion in water, was practiced among the people of the Old Testament as well as the people who belonged to pagan religions. The universal meaning of baptism is that of “starting anew,” of dying to an old, way of life and being born again into a new way of life. Thus, baptism was always connected with repentance which means a moral conversion, a “change of mind,” a change in living from something old and bad to something new and good.


      Peter said, "repent and be baptized" - IT SYMBOLIZES THE BELIEVER'S DEATH TO SIN AND RESURRECTION TO A NEW LIFE IN CHRIST


      References:

      Baptism - Orthodox, https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthod...aments/baptism

      Circumcision: Messianic, http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Art...cumcision.html

      The Covenant of Circumcisio, http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/suss...rcumcision.htm

      Circumcision - Brit Milah, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ion-brit-milah

      Acts 16:1-3, "Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek."
      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...-3&version=NIV

      Romans 2:25-11:27, http://www.biblica.com/bible/online-...%E2%80%9329:25

      Believer's baptism, "Believer's baptism (occasionally called credobaptism, from the Latin word credo meaning "I believe") is the Christian practice of baptism as this is understood by many evangelical denominations, particularly those that descend from the Anabaptist and English Baptist tradition. According to their understanding, a person is baptized on the basis of his or her profession of faith in Jesus Christ and as admission into a local community of faith."

      ...Believer's baptism is administered only to persons who have passed the age of accountability or reason, which is based upon a reading of the New Testament that only believers should be baptized. Some claim that it is also based upon the Jewish tradition of Bar Mitzvah at the age of 12 or 13, at which point Jewish children become responsible for their actions and "one to whom the commandments apply." This analogy is not very helpful since a Jew who is not Bar Mitzvah is nonetheless considered to be fully a Jew—whereas the notion of an "unbaptised Christian" is more problematic. Many Christian theologians[who?], including Zwingli, regard baptism as analogous to the Jewish practice of circumcision, rather than analogous to the Bar Mitzvah ceremony, although there are no explicit sections of the New Testament that support this idea.[citation needed]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believer's_baptism

      Comment


      • #18
        There is a correlation between baptism and circumcision. However, what the article was listing is the fact that both are "spiritual" and gifts from God. Circumcision is the fact that the "skin" has been lifted from our hearts, as to reconnect ourselves back to God - to hear with our ears (spiritually), to be able to take in his word (heart) and receive it (knowledge) all these gifts come from God. At church we make the sign of the cross on our forehead, on our lips and the heart meaning that we want to take in the word of God in our mind and profess through our lips (agree - Amen) and to keep in our hearts/mind and soul (plural). When we read about the uncircumcised - they cannot take in the word. Paul is saying that the only one who can open this up for us and clean our souls out is Christ - and I agree!


        12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


        When we our self's are baptized we are born again in Christ - as they say, the immersion into the water is the sign of death and when we lift up (or rise) it is the sign of the Resurrection.

        As quote: "coming up out of it was a resurrection, God raising you from the dead as he did Christ. **When you were stuck in your old sin-dead life, you were incapable of responding to God**."

        **When you were incapable of responding to God - that is the foreskin, and when circumcised - that barrier was lifted!


        Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the “garments of salvation” symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the “new humanity” of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15).

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          I agree that faith doesn't have to be accompanied by anything. That's an important part of the Bible.

          Romans 4:5
          But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
          The Koine word is "ergazomai" - which may mean either "work" in a general sense, or "perform a given task." Context indicates that Paul is addressing a given task, to wit: circumcision.

          The whole idea of Christianity is that Jesus is setting up a perfect kingdom, and that, even if we clean up our lives, we are not good enough for it.
          Of the person who is in the flesh, this is true enough. The matter of what constitutes not being in the flesh therefore becomes an issue. Romans 8:8-9 will be a good place to start, but it DOES require the use of a (near) "literal equivalent" translation - too many "dynamic equivalent" translations water the statement down.

          So based on our faith, God gives us a new life.
          ? What is "new" about a life wherein the deeds of the old life continue?
          That new life isn't entirely consummated until the flesh is physically destroyed and remade, to where we won't sin anymore.
          A claim that scripture denies (unless it can be shown that a person who has purified himself will still sin).

          The flesh is not finally destroyed until death or until the rapture/resurrection.

          Isaiah 35:8 (NKJV)
          A highway shall be there, and a road,
          And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
          The unclean shall not pass over it, But it shall be for others.
          Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.


          Romans 7:24
          O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
          God will reward us in the next life based on whether we behave, and he will also discipline us in this life. But our place in the kingdom is assured based on faith alone, despite how well we serve.
          A claim denied by scripture ... and not only by James 2:24 "You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone." ... works in this passage is "ergon" works, deeds.

          1 Corinthians 3:14-15
          If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
          This verse says nothing about those who build not at all. For information about such people, it is necessary to refer to the parable of the talents ... Matthew 25:14-27

          Hebrews 12:7-8
          If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
          And of course, the discipline has a purpose 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, for those who have been trained by it, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace. (Which is to say, the person will become fit to walk that highway mentioned by Isaiah.)
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #20
            Sorry, but in order to receive grace, faith is not enough without some kind of what one could call "works" : namely a decision to obey God. To keep His commandments.
            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
              Sorry, but in order to receive grace, faith is not enough without some kind of what one could call "works" : namely a decision to obey God. To keep His commandments.
              True, that.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito
                (Which is to say, the person will become fit to walk that highway mentioned by Isaiah.)
                The person ultimately becomes 'fit' when the person is in heaven.

                ? What is "new" about a life wherein the deeds of the old life continue?
                What's new is the person's spiritual place in heaven.

                Ephesians 2:6
                [A]nd hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus[.]


                A claim that scripture denies (unless it can be shown that a person who has purified himself will still sin).
                The flesh is still in sin. That is why Christians are told that although they have already killed the flesh (life in the Spirit), practically speaking they should continue killing it on a daily basis (walking in the Spirit). One has already happened. The other only happens when we work.

                Galatians 5:24-25
                And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


                The heavenly reality does not become fully realized on earth until the physical resurrection.

                Revelation 21:2-5
                And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. . . . And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


                A claim denied by scripture ... and not only by James 2:24 "You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone." ... works in this passage is "ergon" works, deeds.
                The whole book of James repeatedly refers to judgment, and each time, it is referring to judgment in this life. It is the same "discipline" that I referred to. You have to read the Bible in context and not just look at individual verses simplistically. The judgment is imminent. It is not in the afterlife.

                James 5:9
                Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


                This verse says nothing about those who build not at all.
                You are saying that it is better to not work at all, than to build things which the Bible deems completely meaningless. Does that actually make sense to you?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  The Koine word is "ergazomai" - which may mean either "work" in a general sense, or "perform a given task." Context indicates that Paul is addressing a given task, to wit: circumcision.

                  Of the person who is in the flesh, this is true enough. The matter of what constitutes not being in the flesh therefore becomes an issue. Romans 8:8-9 will be a good place to start, but it DOES require the use of a (near) "literal equivalent" translation - too many "dynamic equivalent" translations water the statement down.

                  ? What is "new" about a life wherein the deeds of the old life continue?
                  A claim that scripture denies (unless it can be shown that a person who has purified himself will still sin).



                  A claim denied by scripture ... and not only by James 2:24 "You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone." ... works in this passage is "ergon" works, deeds.

                  This verse says nothing about those who build not at all. For information about such people, it is necessary to refer to the parable of the talents ... Matthew 25:14-27

                  And of course, the discipline has a purpose 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, for those who have been trained by it, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace. (Which is to say, the person will become fit to walk that highway mentioned by Isaiah.)
                  IV Maccabees:

                  And wisdom is a knowledge of divine and human things, and of their causes. 17 And this is contained in the education of the law; by means of which we learn divine things reverently, and human things profitably.

                  18 And the forms of wisdom are prudence, and justice, and manliness, and temperance. 19 The leading one of these is prudence; by whose means, indeed, it is that reasoning bears rule over the passions. 20 Of the passions, pleasure and pain are the two most comprehensive; and they also by nature refer to the soul. 21 And there are many attendant affections surrounding pleasure and pain. 22 Before pleasure is lust; and after pleasure, joy. 23 And before pain is fear; and after pain is sorrow.

                  24 Wrath is an affection, common to pleasure and to pain, if any one will pay attention when it comes upon him. 25 And there exists in pleasure a malicious disposition, which is the most multiform of all the affections. 26 In the soul it is arrogance, and love of money, and vaingloriousness, and contention, and faithlessness, and the evil eye. 27 In the body it is greediness and gormandizing, and solitary gluttony.

                  28 As pleasure and pain are, therefore, two growth of the body and the soul, so there are many offshoots of these passions. 29 And reasoning, the universal husbandman, purging, and pruning these severally, and binding round, and watering, and transplanting, in every way improves the materials of the morals and affections. 30 For reasoning is the leader of the virtues, but it is the sole ruler of the passions. Observe then first, through the very things which stand in the way of temperance, that reasoning is absolute ruler of the passions.

                  Argument from the view point of this scriptural point:

                  3 If, then, reasoning appears to hold the mastery over the passions which stand in the way of temperance, such as gluttony and lust, 4 it surely also and manifestly has the rule over the affections which are contrary to justice, such as malice; and of those which are hindrances to manliness, as wrath, and pain, and fear. 5 How, then, is it, perhaps some may say, that reasoning, if it rule the affections, is not also master of forgetfulness and ignorance? They attempt a ridiculous argument. 6 For reasoning does not rule over its own affections, but over such as are contrary to justice, and manliness and temperance, and prudence; and yet over these, so as to withstand, without destroying them.

                  7 I might prove to you, from may other considerations, that religious reasoning is sole master of the passions;
                  Proverbs 9:5, 4"Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!" To him who lacks understanding she says, 5"Come, eat of my food And drink of the wine I have mixed. 6"Forsake your folly and live, And proceed in the way of understanding."…


                  See the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:17 - repeat, "Circumcision (spiritually - circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.) it is the fact that the "skin" has been lifted from our hearts as to reconnect ourselves back spiritually to God (not in the flesh but in the Spirit) - to hear with our own ears (spiritually), to be able to take in God's word (heart) and receive it (knowledge) and understand the knowledge and the wisdom that the word of God brings. All these things are gifts that come from God. The heart/soul (mind) can't hear the word of God, like it should, nor can it (the soul-mind) reason when we are in the state of sin - since we are in the flesh, sin.

                  Jesus states, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." When we digest the word (taste and see -John 6:51) - Proverbs 9:5 then man is able to fully digest divine wisdom. When seeing/understand with our soul - we are able to lift that foreskin that blinded our eyes - Wisdom of scripture. We have to be in the spirit and not in the flesh.

                  My question is this......does the flesh (not the spirit) need to be circumcised as to see with our eyes and hear with our ears people’s heart - since (in the flesh) we become calloused in our way of thinking/reasoning; and since we can hardly hear with their ears and have closed our eyes to God's word. Scripture tells us: Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. or in other words, to reason) in order, to receive the gift of baptism? When God gives us these gifts, are these gifts (rewards) in a set order that one should be receiving them? - Spiritual gifts.

                  In the Prodigal son passage - how was it written? "When he came to his senses" according to NIV, but it is interpreted as when the son came to his reasoning. It is when the son realized what he did - and John disciplines asked this question to Jesus, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" -----John had already confirmation that Jesus was the Christ when he baptized him in the Jordan, so why ask? John had fully acknowledge him:

                  29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

                  However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—

                  John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

                  ***other passages - tell us it is the eyes, ears and heart that are blinded by the flesh. So what comes first circumcision or baptism - the removal of the skin from our senses and then baptism? That is why, I see a correlation between circumcision and baptism...... ***


                  None of the rulers of this ·world [age] understood it. If they had, they would not have crucified the ·Lord of glory [glorious Lord]. 9 But as it is written in the Scriptures:


                  “No ·one [ eye] has ever seen this,
                  and no ·one [ ear] has ever heard about it.
                  No ·one [human heart] has ever imagined
                  what God has prepared for those who love him [Is. 64:4].” - Eye, Ear and Human Heart - all senses have to be taken in!

                  10 But God has ·shown [revealed to] us these things through the Spirit.

                  [For] The Spirit ·searches out [examines; scrutinizes] all things, even the ·deep secrets [deep things; depths] of God.
                  Last edited by Marta; 02-03-2017, 12:26 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Perhaps you are unaware that "faith" and "believe" have nothing like the same meanings in Koine Greek. The verbs mean believe and trust in most of the translations of the Hebrew (but by no means all), and almost invariably, the nouns and adjectives mean loyalty, trustworthiness, faithfulness. So - when such matters as "the just shall live by faith" are mentioned, the statements refer to "loyalty", not "belief". "The just shall live by faith" in particular, being cited by Paul (twice) and once in Hebrews, translates Habakkuk 2:4 ... No wiggle room there, Habakkuk says loyalty. . The 36 occurrences of "by faith" in the New Testament all use that same word, pistis - and that word in the Septuagint never translates the Hebrew for "believe". When it says that we are "saved by faith", it does not mean "by belief" - in fact, I can't think off hand of anywhere that says we are saved by faith - and certainly not by "faith alone".


                    By all means, read all that the Bible has to say:

                    Galatians 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

                    Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

                    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

                    Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

                    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

                    Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                    1 John 3: 2b-3 when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
                    who therefore ought obediently to keep his commandments
                    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

                    Romans 8:13-14 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

                    And there are the statements of Jesus himself:

                    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
                    Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Perhaps you are unaware that "faith" and "believe" have nothing like the same meanings in Koine Greek. The verbs mean believe and trust in most of the translations of the Hebrew (but by no means all), and almost invariably, the nouns and adjectives mean loyalty, trustworthiness, faithfulness. So - when such matters as "the just shall live by faith" are mentioned, the statements refer to "loyalty", not "belief". "The just shall live by faith" in particular, being cited by Paul (twice) and once in Hebrews, translates Habakkuk 2:4 ... No wiggle room there, Habakkuk says loyalty. . The 36 occurrences of "by faith" in the New Testament all use that same word, pistis - and that word in the Septuagint never translates the Hebrew for "believe". When it says that we are "saved by faith", it does not mean "by belief" - in fact, I can't think off hand of anywhere that says we are saved by faith - and certainly not by "faith alone".


                      By all means, read all that the Bible has to say:

                      Galatians 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

                      Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

                      9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

                      Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

                      Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

                      Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                      1 John 3: 2b-3 when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
                      who therefore ought obediently to keep his commandments
                      3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

                      Romans 8:13-14 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

                      And there are the statements of Jesus himself:

                      Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
                      Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

                      So your saying that "our blindness" and our continual living in the flesh sin can be lifted (uncovered) by faith? or by belief? or by works? How can the spirit become alive when it is dead? What restores the spirit and brings life?

                      The question being asked is who lifts us out of our darkness? Who can restore the sight, open our ears and soul (mind) in order for us to be healed? How can we see....how can we hear and understand? If we're blind to faith?

                      God poured out His grace on all humanity, He cleanses His people from their sin and purifies believers for Himself (see Numbers 11:25 and Acts 2:1-4 . This grace of God instructs us to live upright and godly lives in this present age (2:11–3:8).

                      The object of his coming was reconciliation. He came to heal the breach and bridge the chasm between God and man. We must note one thing quite clearly and always retain it in our memories. The initiative in reconciliation was with God. The New Testament never talks of God being reconciled to men, but always of men being reconciled to God. God's attitude to men was love, and it was never anything else. Sometimes a theology is preached which implies that something that Jesus did changed God's attitude from wrath into love. There is no justification in the New Testament for any such view. It was God who began the whole process of salvation. It was because God so loved the world that he sent his Son. His one object in sending his Son into this world was to woo men back to himself and, as Paul puts it, to reconcile all things to himself.
                      Last edited by Marta; 02-03-2017, 12:22 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The short answer is "us - responding to the Holy Spirit"

                        We put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit - We purify ourselves by the Holy Spirit.-

                        And the Holy Spirit works in us to produce us holy and blameless ... provided that we set about producing deeds in keeping with repentance.

                        The critical verse - as it were, the pivotal point - is in Acts if I remember rightly. I'm running a search, but it may be some hours before I can post it.

                        edit:

                        Here's part of it -

                        μετανοήσατε Repent ούν then, και and επιστρέψατε turn, εις for το the εξαλειφθήναι wiping away υμών of your τας αμαρτίας sins! όπως so that αν έλθωσι [3 should come καιροί 1 times αναψύξεως 2 of respite] από from προσώπου [the] presence του of the κυρίου Lord

                        Note - repent and turn, following which times of refreshment. μετανοησατε and επιστρεψατε are each aorist imperatives. Completion of repenting and turning is expected, but εις (gives a direction to the turning) toward, and εξαλειφθηναι is (Aorist Passive Infinitive) getting <sins> obliterated. So - repentance and turning must be performed and completed by us, but obliteration (completed) is not something that we can do.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 02-03-2017, 01:05 PM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito
                          Perhaps you are unaware that "faith" and "believe" have nothing like the same meanings in Koine Greek. The verbs mean believe and trust in most of the translations of the Hebrew (but by no means all), and almost invariably, the nouns and adjectives mean loyalty, trustworthiness, faithfulness.
                          Fortunately, we don't have to guess about ambiguous words, or argue about ancient languages at all. In the gospels, Jesus routinely demonstrates that all it takes it belief in order to be healed. It does not require good deeds or "loyalty."

                          Luke 8:46-48
                          And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.


                          Matthew 8:5-10
                          And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


                          And all the passages you quoted from only prove my point. My point is that heaven is a place of moral perfection, and there will be no wickedness there.

                          Colossians 3:1-7 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. . . .Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

                          He is saying that the spirit is already resurrected, and their spiritual position is already in heaven. But the flesh is still on earth, and needs to be put to death on a daily basis. Don't you find it odd that he tells them that their sins are in the past ("we also walked some time") but also tells them that they need to "[m]ortify . . . your members which are upon the earth"? There are two types of mortification. The Christian has two natures, a spiritual/heavenly nature and a sinful flesh nature. The spirit has already been resurrected and is perfect. But the Christian doesn't ever lose the second nature until physical death. That is why Paul says that they have already crucified the flesh, but that they still need to crucify it. Spiritually it is already complete. Physically it is not.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Indeed, there are seven occasions where that statement is made by Christ - each time using pistis. Can you demonstrate any reason for declaring that this "faith" is "belief", when every time that pistis is used in the Old Testament, it translates: "loyalty", "faithfulness", "trustworthiness"?
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I don't agree that the word means what you think. Regardless, the centurion clearly did not show any loyalty to Jesus, faithfulness to Jesus, or trustworthiness. He simply made a statement that he believed Jesus could heal. He showed that he believed. Jesus said that this statement showed "faith." Hence, faith = belief, at least in that case. The woman who touched Jesus's clothes certainly never showed that she was trustworthy in any respect, either. The word "faith" doesn't necessarily mean what you are saying. And the physical examples prove what kind of "faith" is required.

                              From what I know about Greek, I also know that the verb form ("believe") certainly doesn't mean that. It just means to trust. Hence, the noun "faith" is more ambiguous, whereas the verb "believe" is more clear.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                πίστις (pistis)
                                pistis H529 * אֵמוּן ('ēmûn) emun
                                pistis H530 * אֱמֻנָה אֱמוּנָה ('ĕmunāh 'ĕmûnāh) #emunah
                                pistis H539 * אָמַן ('āman) aman ni.

                                אָמַן 'aman (aw-man') v.
                                1. (properly) to build up or support.
                                2. to foster as a parent or nurse.
                                3. (figuratively) to render (or be) firm or faithful.
                                4. to trust or believe.
                                5. to be permanent or quiet.
                                6. (morally) to be true or certain.
                                7. (once, Isaiah 30:21) to go to the right hand (interchangeable with H541).

                                אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened]
                                1. (literally) firmness.
                                2. (figuratively) security.
                                3. (morally) fidelity.

                                אֵמוּן 'emuwn (ay-moon') n-m.
                                1. established.
                                2. (figuratively) trusty.
                                3. (abstractly) trustworthiness

                                So far, I haven't seen anywhere in the LXX that gives aman translated as pistis - but it must be in there somewhere.

                                EDIT:

                                Note further that prepositions can have an impact on the specific meaning of a noun. "By faith" is a distinct issue, and that one is "emunah" for "the just shall live by faith".
                                Last edited by tabibito; 02-03-2017, 02:17 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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