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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Faith is not to be accompanied by anything at conversion?

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  • #31
    Did Jesus misspeak when he said that the centurion, who had merely expressed a belief, had more "pistis" than the people of Israel?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Marta View Post
      When we our self's are baptized we are born again in Christ - as they say, the immersion into the water is the sign of death and when we lift up (or rise) it is the sign of the Resurrection.
      One is not born again through water baptism. One is born again through faith in Christ (1 John 5:1).
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        EDIT:

        Note further that prepositions can have an impact on the specific meaning of a noun. "By faith" is a distinct issue, and that one is "emunah" for "the just shall live by faith".

        As for the centurion - can it be demonstrated that Jesus DID NOT mean that the centurion had demonstrated faithfulness?
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #34
          What notable faithfulness did he demonstrate that was greater than the people of Israel? Just read the text for what it says and stop trying to jam your own ideas into it.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            What notable faithfulness did he demonstrate that was greater than the people of Israel? Just read the text for what it says and stop trying to jam your own ideas into it.

            I was addressing the matter of "by faith" and salvation. Your red herring about the centurion doesn't have anything to do with "by faith" - and it doesn't get within coo-ee of any text that addresses salvation and faith. Nor do I read anything into the red herring text that you brought up.

            Of course, red herrings and uppity responses DO have a way of substituting for reasoned debate when the proponent of an argument is unable to substantiate his claims.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Marta View Post
              So your saying that "our blindness" and our continual living in the flesh sin can be lifted (uncovered) by faith? or by belief? or by works?
              It would have to be all three. Repentance and producing works in keeping with repentance is necessary (if we are to believe Paul, that is) but without the faith (errm... faithfulness) that God extends to the believer, no amount of works or repentance would be of any effect. Who can have faith toward something that is considered unbelievable? Why were the members of the Jewish establishment counted unworthy? (or, why did they count themselves unworthy - Acts 13:46)

              How can the spirit become alive when it is dead? What restores the spirit and brings life?
              Hmmm... would you mind exapnding this thought a touch?

              The question being asked is who lifts us out of our darkness? Who can restore the sight, open our ears and soul (mind) in order for us to be healed? How can we see....how can we hear and understand? If we're blind to faith?
              In addressing this issue, Matthew 13:14 might be a good jump off point.

              God poured out His grace on all humanity, He cleanses His people from their sin and purifies believers for Himself (see Numbers 11:25 and Acts 2:1-4 . This grace of God instructs us to live upright and godly lives in this present age (2:11–3:8).
              Does God do this without the active cooperation and submission of the believer? Again, 1 John 3: 2b-3 indicates that God does not himself perform purification, but does make purification possible. Cleansing now, that might be a different matter. Washing hands cleanses them, rubbing sanitiser on the hands after washing purifies them ... using sanitiser on unclean hands is a waste of time (and sanitiser)

              The object of his coming was reconciliation. He came to heal the breach and bridge the chasm between God and man. We must note one thing quite clearly and always retain it in our memories. The initiative in reconciliation was with God. The New Testament never talks of God being reconciled to men, but always of men being reconciled to God. God's attitude to men was love, and it was never anything else. Sometimes a theology is preached which implies that something that Jesus did changed God's attitude from wrath into love. There is no justification in the New Testament for any such view. It was God who began the whole process of salvation. It was because God so loved the world that he sent his Son. His one object in sending his Son into this world was to woo men back to himself and, as Paul puts it, to reconcile all things to himself.
              Minor quibbles with this one, but overall I find myself in agreement.
              Last edited by tabibito; 02-04-2017, 10:43 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tabibito
                Your red herring about the centurion doesn't have anything to do with "by faith" - and it doesn't get within coo-ee of any text that addresses salvation and faith.
                So you are saying that Jesus's healings did not have anything to do with the message of salvation? I say that he was proving to people that he had the power to make all things new.

                Revelation 21:5
                And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


                Jesus specifically pointed out this connection between salvation and his miracles in various places. For example, he used the physical resurrection of Lazarus to prove that he could resurrect everyone who believes.

                John 11:23-27
                Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


                Jesus asked Martha if she believed "this," referring to the statement that he had made (that salvation is by belief). Martha said yes. She went further, and said that the statement that Jesus will save all who believe is itself equivalent to calling him the "Christ." Why are you unwilling to believe the statement? Is your heart hardened to the point that you are unable to believe?

                John 12:37-39
                But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: . . . . Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Peter's public disavowal of Christ was, in my estimation, an act of disloyalty. The centurion's public avowal of Christ was, again, in my estimation, an act of loyalty.
                  The centurion was (if memory serves correctly) the only person to decide that Jesus need not put in a personal appearance in order for his command to be obeyed, which would put him at least in the top percentile of people who acknowledged Christ.
                  Against that is the use of pisteuo in verse 13, which makes it (theoretically) possible that pistis (verse 10) is being used in the sense of "aman: sub-definition 4", though aman is usually translated as πιστευω in the LXX.

                  None of which impacts on the use of pistin (as conjugated to the dative, πιστει: for which there is no translation in the LXX record of "belief" - it translates either "emunah - loyalty" or "emeth - trustworthiness." Where pistin is declined to the genitive, πιστεως, the LXX translates only emunah).
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    When the centurion merely said that he knew Jesus could heal, you claim that merely saying some words made the centurion among the "top percentile of people who acknowledge Christ"? Well, of course it did! But merely acknowledging Christ is not "loyalty." Acknowledging him as the savior is what is called "faith." I thought you were the one saying that acknowledging Christ as savior is insufficient to get to heaven. The centurion disproves you.

                    And why do you keep going on about this "by faith" stuff, arguing that when the word "by" is added it means "by living a good life"? In reality, Habbakuk 2 absolutely refers to "faith," not loyalty. In chapter 1, it mentions that the Babylonians will see their victories, become proud, and attribute those victories to their own false gods.

                    Habbakuk 1:10-11
                    And they shall scoff at the kings,
                    and the princes shall be a scorn unto them:
                    they shall deride every strong hold;
                    for they shall heap dust, and take it.
                    Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over,
                    and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.


                    Hence, this wicked empire is the people who are "lifted up" (see verse 4 below). In contrast, God's people will have "faith" that God will ultimately prevail and his kingdom will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. In context, having "faith" simply means believing that the vision "not [a] lie" (verse 3 below). Faith means to believe that God is telling the truth.


                    Habbakuk 2:2-14
                    2 And the Lord answered me, and said,
                    Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
                    that he may run that readeth it.
                    3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
                    but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
                    though it tarry, wait for it;
                    because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
                    4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
                    but the just shall live by his faith.
                    . . . .
                    12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood,
                    and stablisheth a city by iniquity!
                    13 Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire,
                    and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
                    14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
                    as the waters cover the sea.


                    So the pagans are "lifted up" by looking at their present victories, but the just have "faith" that God will ultimately win. The doctrine is not that complicated, as long as you read entire chapter(s) so that you can interpret verses in context. There is nothing about loyalty in the chapter.
                    Last edited by Obsidian; 02-05-2017, 01:46 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      Did Jesus misspeak when he said that the centurion, who had merely expressed a belief, had more "pistis" than the people of Israel?
                      So faith comes by the "realization" of ....,

                      Romans 10:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

                      17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

                      Again,

                      ***************
                      So then,

                      Our faith rests only on the Redemption of Christ’s death.


                      ****************************

                      The question isn't about what comes after the fact but before the fact! In order for one to believe in Jesus Christ, His purpose for dying on the cross plus the resurrection, one would have to have a sense of Christ to be drawn or revealed to someone, even into our own life. The process doesn't stop at the time of salvation, I think salvation "opens" up the communication between us and God. However, a person would have to become "aware" or "come to ones sense" (reason). Haven't you ever meant someone who came to that realization of Christ and then, the understanding (belief) in the crucifixion, it is a very emotional moment. Comparable to having someone's senses cleared, then the realization of Christ being present with us/them.

                      Jesus, and whenever someone was cured, would say that "Your" faith has saved you., now go and present yourself and offer thanks to God. The glory is when you present yourself and in thanks to God is restoration. When Jesus came to John the Baptist to be baptized then Jesus went out into the desert and was then tempted - correct, not before hand. The account of the temptation begins: “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil” (Matt. 4:1, cf. also Luke 4:1). Our Lord was Spirit-led to fast and hunger in the wilderness. Second, obedience to the will of God takes precedence to one’s physical appetites. That is the implication of the statement, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God’ (Matt. 4:4). So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



                      The prodigal son comes to the realization "or came to his sense" and then returns back to the father. - Right? In this one statement toward the end of the passage sums it up:

                      1 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

                      - Reason, Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority. The word faith sometimes refers to a belief that is held with lack of reason or evidence, a belief that is held in spite of or against reason or evidence, or it can refer to belief based upon a degree of evidential warrant.

                      Faith and Reason - Rationality (?)

                      Traditionally, faith and reason have each been considered to be sources of justification for religious belief. Because both can purportedly serve this same epistemic function, it has been a matter of much interest to philosophers and theologians how the two are related and thus how the rational agent should treat claims derived from either source. Some have held that there can be no conflict between the two—that reason properly employed and faith properly understood will never produce contradictory or competing claims—whereas others have maintained that faith and reason can (or even must) be in genuine contention over certain propositions or methodologies.

                      In other words - Faith and Reason (religiously) are the motivators to be able to find out truth's - wisdom and knowledge. Reading from Psalms 119, even though we have reached a level with God of faith, the relationship from us is asked to walk into a stronger bond with God as there is a sense to want to be closer. The best example to this is with Jesus and his relationship to Peter and also, even with John - all Disciples of Christ were close to each other and to our Lord but each needed a sense positioning and closeness, in wisdom and knowledge (John 14:26 and Luke 24:49). In Colossians, I thought how Paul's faith-Reason-Knowledge and Wisdom (all the spiritual senses) had grown (exceeded) and been fulfilled. You know (sometimes) by strengths - we grow by each strength and by each strength we are guided and then reach our spiritual level in Christ, who teaches and we listen.

                      However, our uncircumcised heart (referring to our senses eyes, ears and hearts mind/soul) were "OPENED" to God's grace. I believe that Paul's scripture states:

                      "We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

                      Doctrinal sections

                      In its doctrinal sections, Colossians emphatically explains that Christ is begotten before all creation (not created) and is supreme over all that has been created. All things were created through him and for him, and the universe is sustained by him. God had chosen for his complete being to dwell in Christ. The "cosmic powers" revered by the false teachers had been "discarded" and "led captive" at Christ's death. Christ is the master of all angelic forces and the head of the church. Christ is the only mediator between God and humanity, the unique agent of cosmic reconciliation. Interestingly, it is the Father in Colossians who is said to have delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Colossians 1:12–13) Epistle to the Colossians
                      Are there levels to our relationship? (see Exodus, Moses see God face to face, Exodus 33:13-14) and then in, Exodus 33:18, Moses wants to see God's glory.

                      ***********
                      Last edited by Marta; 02-05-2017, 05:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Hmmm... would you mind expanding this thought a touch?

                        Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

                        Adam sinning, his nature became guilty and corrupted, and so came to his children. Thus in him all have sinned. And death is by sin; for death is the wages of sin. Then entered all that misery which is the due desert of sin; temporal, spiritual, eternal death.


                        If we are blind, spiritually, and we are dead to faith - how can it be revealed to us? Remember the scriptural passage

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Marta View Post
                          Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
                          Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

                          "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29



                          If we are blind, spiritually, and we are dead to faith - how can it be revealed to us? Remember the scriptural passage
                          Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear. "Faith comes by hearing" and beyond that is the statement 1 Cor 12:9 that "To each is given the manifestation of the spirit to advantage .... to another faith in that same Spirit" ... and moreover ... Paul's declaration 1 Cor 2:4-5 that "My message and my preaching were not accompanied by clever, wise words, but by a display of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith would not be based on human wisdom but on God’s power"

                          In sum, the believer receives (to pass the benefit on) the authorities that are needed to open the eyes and unblock the ears of those living in darkness. It is the intention that the believers' words and actions - underpinned by the conferred authority through the Holy Spirit - make God manifest in the world and to the unbelieving.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 02-05-2017, 07:02 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            [QUOTE]
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

                            "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29
                            Tabibito - I not referring on the inheritance of sin from Adam. What I am referring to is our own sins that have been accrued/occurred on our own merit.

                            I love this statement that Paul wrote in Colossians - this is actually my favorite, so far. You know, I re-read most of this chapter and others but this has got to be my favorite!

                            Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

                            and, noting this verse

                            Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              [QUOTE]
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

                              "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29

                              Romans 5:12-21New Living Translation (NLT)

                              Adam and Christ Contrasted

                              12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

                              Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear. "Faith comes by hearing" and beyond that is the statement 1 Cor 12:9 that "To each is given the manifestation of the spirit to advantage .... to another faith in that same Spirit" ... and moreover ... Paul's declaration 1 Cor 2:4-5 that "My message and my preaching were not accompanied by clever, wise words, but by a display of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith would not be based on human wisdom but on God’s power"

                              In sum, the believer receives (to pass the benefit on) the authorities that are needed to open the eyes and unblock the ears of those living in darkness. It is the intention that the believers' words and actions - underpinned by the conferred authority through the Holy Spirit - make God manifest in the world and to the unbelieving.

                              Not necessarily:


                              As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

                              16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

                              “Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
                              their words to the ends of the world.”


                              Not everyone who hears the word of God acts on it. See Ezekiel 12:1-3 and Isaiah 6 although the Israelite's heard the words that Ezekiel spoke, they did not really listen because as it is quote, "our eyes and ears", just like in Jeremiah’s time, have become deaf and blind to the law, scripture. So how can faith be restore when the soul is blind or deaf - uncircumcised hearts? There's a passage out of scripture that those who are blind and can't hear are like statues - their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.Ephesians 5:14New International Version (NIV)

                              14 This is why it is said:

                              “Wake up, sleeper,
                              rise from the dead,
                              and Christ will shine on you.”



                              Quote from another source:


                              ...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; (Joel 2:32a NIV)

                              another source:
                              What stirs the soul into listening or hearing or believing? Again, pointing toward the beginning of the bible - scripture,

                              Genesis 2:7: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]"

                              A human being becomes alive (that is, "a living being" or "soul") only when the "breath of God" is breathed into him (Genesis 2:7). We have the ability to be saved or refuse it, that is a choice. However, in that choice to refuse salvation, a verse that's stated in Psalms tells us, "Psalms 94:9,“He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?”

                              another scriptural point:

                              No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

                              “What no eye has seen,
                              what no ear has heard,
                              and what no human mind has conceived”—
                              the things God has prepared for those who love him

                              10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

                              Even when we are brought to God's salvation, we still need to nourish that spirit within us to grow continually - we have been brought into Christ and to have faith, as all our senses have been opened1 Corinthians 3:2 Even the apostles had asked Jesus to increase their faith- and Jesus replied back, "But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by when he is come from the field, 'Go and sit down to meat.'? And will he not rather say unto him, 'Make ready so that I can sup,and gird yourself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drank. And afterward you shall eat and drink.' Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done that which is our duty to do.'" (Luke 17:5-10)



                              And again, Jesus said:17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?


                              For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ (Matthew 13:15)
                              Last edited by Marta; 02-07-2017, 05:29 PM.

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                              • #45
                                I did not intend "Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear." to be taken as an inevitable outcome (though on re-reading, I see that it can easily be so interpreted.)

                                What I had in mind was τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος "this is the work of God so that you may・can have believed on the one that he sent"

                                As you have pointed out, no action will be of any effect when people block their ears and shut their eyes.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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